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Author Topic: What made you sign up?  (Read 9209 times)

JasonPSorens

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Re:What made you sign up?
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2004, 12:23:21 pm »

Edit: Okay, this is frustrating: I've tried to fill out and submit the statement of intent form but each time it tells me that I need to change my username and email because they're already taken--by me as a friend of the FSP! Isn't there someway I can keep my username and email address that i used as a friend and just switch to a member??

Ah, a loophole in the automated system!  Well, what I advise you to do is to email Adam Rick at data@freestateproject.org; he can make the change for you manually.  Welcome aboard!
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Old Nick

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Re:What made you sign up?
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2004, 01:54:02 pm »

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but they also believe that people saying anything against homosexuals is a punishable crime and that doesn't say a lot for freedom of speech, which IMO is the most important personal freedom of all.

And over here in Amerika people get punished for being "obscene" and saying things that offend the Religious Reich. What's your point??
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Lasse P

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Re:What made you sign up?
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2004, 05:06:56 pm »

And I did spend a year living in Germany and, I have to say, that I don't think the personal freedom level is higher over there at all.  Maybe in the fact that most of them do allow gay marriage, but they also believe that people saying anything against homosexuals is a punishable crime and that doesn't say a lot for freedom of speech, which IMO is the most important personal freedom of all.

Your right, it's true that here in Europe (especially in Scandinavia) we have a very high level of bureaucracy. In Sweden, for example, several Christian preachers have found themselves in prison when they publicly pointed out that homosexuality is a sin. In one way I oppose gay marriages, because they are just another way of giving the government a chance to interfere with our private lives. In my opinion it would be much better if all marriages where removed from the law and instead give the chance for private persons and couples to make any contracts they like regarding their personal affairs.

Besides that,  things like heating, electricity and water are so expensive over there!

These are not actually issues of personal freedom, but issues of economic freedom. I myself find economic freedom a lot more important then personal freedom. That is because the economic freedom contributes more to the chance of determining my own quality of life, then personal freedom does. Things like homosexual marriages, cannabis use, gun control etc. are all minor issues if you compare those with a 50% tax rate.

I think the day is nearing when we, too, will have socialized health care and I won't be able to choose what kind of health care I get because it will be chosen for me already.

I don't share your point of view. It might be true that the US tax rate has risen about 15% after the II world war, but it's also true that the liberal economic view has been very strong after the collapse of the Soviet Union. When the competition accelerates, and there are practically no customs, every government has the need to make tax cuts if they want to economically have a chance to compete in the future. The only way I can see the end of freedom is if governments and institutions make more international contracts so that the world will move towards a one big united world government. On the other hand it might be true; in the meantime, that the US government will develop a more socialized healthcare system, it will most likely not be the end position. If we think about European states, like Finland (which was never a part of Soviet Union), we have also moved a bit away form a social health care system for about fifteen years, although the movement is slow, it still exists.

Edit: fixed some small errors.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2004, 05:08:29 pm by Larry P »
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Simon Jester

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Re:What made you sign up?
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2004, 07:34:57 pm »

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And over here in Amerika people get punished for being "obscene" and saying things that offend the Religious Reich. What's your point??

I believe you're refering to the FFC (or is it FCC? Eh, doesn't matter,  it's still stupid.). And my point was that both the US and Europe suffer from restraints on personal freedom, but that I believe the US has more personal freedom than Europe, especially when it comes to freedom of speech. What was your point with your references to the "Religious Reich?"

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In one way I oppose gay marriages, because they are just another way of giving the government a chance to interfere with our private lives.
I agree with you on that one. Why does marriage have to be recognized by anyone at all? As long as it's voluntary it should be allowed.


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These are not actually issues of personal freedom, but issues of economic freedom. I myself find economic freedom a lot more important then personal freedom.
I knew this was going to get me in trouble after I posted it :) I've always had a hard time differentiating between personal and economic freedoms because they are so interrelated. If you like to have the personal freedom of taking 30 min. long hot showers, it would certainly help if water didn't cost $3 a gallon (ok, making up numbers here...but you get the general idea.)

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On the other hand it might be true; in the meantime, that the US government will develop a more socialized healthcare system, it will most likely not be the end position.
God willing, it won't be. If I have my way about it won't be like that at all. But with how things are going right now, the US healthcare system is on very shakey ground, with the new prescription drug bill and insurance being basically the only way to get healthcare.

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If we think about European states, like Finland (which was never a part of Soviet Union), we have also moved a bit away form a social health care system for about fifteen years, although the movement is slow, it still exists.
We seem to be inching towards it in much the same way that Finland is inching away from it.  Germany even made the grand effort of starting to charge *gasp* co-pays while I was there! Wouldn't that be ironic of the US got socialized medicine and Europe ended up with more market-based medicine?

Thanks, btw, for the welcome, Jason, and I'll email that guy and let him know.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2004, 10:26:16 pm by Geist »
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Lasse P

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Re:What made you sign up?
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2004, 09:23:51 pm »

I knew this was going to get me in trouble after I posted it :) I've always had a hard time differentiating between personal and economic freedoms because they are so interrelated. If you like to have the personal freedom of taking 30 min. long hot showers, it would certainly help if water didn't cost $3 a gallon (ok, making up numbers here...but you get the general idea.)

I'll try to explain this :). It's pretty hard because, like you said; economic and personal freedoms are interrelated. It's nearly impossible to have 100% of economic freedom and 0% of personal freedom, or the other way around, although it would be possible to have, lets' say 90% economic freedom and 100% personal freedom. (Some scholars however argue that it's impossible to gain both 100% economic and social freedom, since you need money to fulfil your basic needs, and without it, you have no chance to choose.)

A definition of economic freedom could be the possibility of using your own money. The things that decrease economic freedom are taxes and regulations, since the two most important things in economic freedom is the ability to choose how your income is consumed and where from you purchase your products and services.

A definition of social freedom could be the possibility of using your own time.

Some examples: the government has a regulation on purchasing guns; the rule is that you can't buy a gun unless you can prove that you need it for hunting deer. This is an issue of social freedom, because you are able to choose from who you will buy your gun when you fulfil the conditions. But if the government would say that you can own a gun but states that you would be taxed $10 a year from owning it, it would be an issue of economic freedom, since the government takes away your possibility of using $10 for something else. Another case lacking the economic freedom would be if the government would tax 1% from you and then the government would buy you a gun. In this case the government would use your purchasing power, thinking that it knows your needs better then you do, it would also expand to regard personal freedom if the government would make it mandatory to carry a gun with you where ever you go. Another example where you would lack both personal and economic freedom would be if the government would only allow guns for white males with the weight above 300 pounds. In this extreme case all other persons, excluding over weighted white males, would lack economic and personal freedom. Of course you could think about changing your skin colour and your sex (like with Michael Jackson who grew up from being a poor ugly black boy to become a rich beautiful white woman), but these extreme cases are for practical reasons excluded.

So, with your water you'd lack economic freedom, since you can't choose your water manufacturer and the government steals an extra amount of money from you when using the water :).

Wouldn't that be ironic of the US got socialized medicine and Europe ended up with more market-based medicine?

Yes it would. I always had and image as a kid (and do sometimes still) that the US is the last defender of global freedom :). This is however unlikely, since the political system in the US supports a more liberal economic policy.
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Simon Jester

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Re:What made you sign up?
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2004, 04:06:28 pm »

I've made my mind up but I figured I'd leave it open for others to come in and tell why they've joined---and prospective members to read/comment on the reasons :)
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mvargus

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Re:What made you sign up?
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2004, 10:36:35 pm »

I found the question being asked here reasonable, and thought I'd take a few moments to reply.

first, I'm a very recent addition to the group.   I joined about 3 days ago after thinking about the wisdom of joining for about 3 weeks.  I don't agree with all of the opinions and goals of the various members, but I believe in liberty and that a small but dedicated group could make a difference and remind all Americans that we pay for our choices.

My personal goals once I arrive in NH are based on less government and support for freedom.  I'm still deciding if I'd run for office or just get involved in campaigns and other political activities that are behind the scenes.  Most likely I will try to get involved publicly.

Now as to the "libertarian" principles of many of the members of the FSP.  I agree that the government should stay out of our personal business as much as is reasonable and right.  I think many members need to realize that some of the platform usually put forward by the Libertarian party actually hurt us in the "Court of Public Opinion"
This specifically is about "drug legalization".  I'll be the first to say that the draconian drug laws of this country do little to really help those that need help when it comes to drugs.  HOWEVER, this shouldn't be something we openly talk about because many others who would gladly support the rest of our platform get very upset over drugs.  Instead we should talk about "personal freedoms"  Some might realize that included in that more blanket statement is an eventual push to allow "medical marujuana" use and such.  (I live in California where medical marujuana is legal and I can say that of the more than 30 people I've met with prescriptions to use it, not one has any medical problems.  Its been a huge con that has a horrible potential to create a great backlash if any of the people with a prescription ever commits a crime while "under the influence")

Just my 2 cents, and I expect some here will disagree with me.  I'll happily work with any and all members of the FSP in the pursuit of freedom for all.
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Simon Jester

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Re:What made you sign up?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2004, 09:29:18 am »

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I don't agree with all of the opinions and goals of the various members
Nor should you. Anyone who agrees 100% with the any party line is an idiot...unless, of course, that person is the one who created it :)


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I'll happily work with any and all members of the FSP in the pursuit of freedom for all.
Yay!
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RidleyReport

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Re:What made you sign up?
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2004, 06:08:25 pm »

 I signed up because I knew I wouldn't want to miss the fun.  I knew it was a promise I could keep because I knew the things going on here would be like a magnet for me.

Since I've gotten here I've had actually a lot more fun than I expected and also managed to get a dream job thrown in.

The funnest stuff has been tubing and rallies.   Tubing is something the Benson folks sent me to do...basically you just sit in the passenger seat and put benson brochures in people's newspaper boxes as you drive by....and as you can imagine the conversation and the scenery are first rate.

I went to the Benson pre debate rally on the 26th and turned into some kind of wild eyed fanatical screaming organism LOL.  
 
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mvpel

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Re: What made you sign up?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2005, 09:12:37 am »

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Russell Kanning

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Re: What made you sign up?
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2005, 09:54:00 am »

Great Picture :D
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RidleyReport

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Re: What made you sign up?
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2005, 10:04:21 pm »

I signed up because I didn't want to miss all the fun.  Now that I'm here I think it would be be depressing to go back to any other part of the country I've lived in, unless there was something even cooler going on there.
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bIlluminati

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Re: What made you sign up?
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2005, 02:05:49 am »

I signed up 45 minutes after hearing about it from ... Dada Orwell, on 15 August 2003 - and 45 minutes before the deadline to votes.
I've been a small l libertarian since age 12, and my dad was a small-mouthed anarchist before that.

Maybe make Robert A. Heinlein the recruiter. Yes, I think that would be fair. And it took less than an hour to persuade my son to agree to sign up when he turns 18 - he is determined that on the day we move, that there will be more Ohio movers than any other state - even if we have to drag them.

Oh, and if you want to add numbers - lower the sign-up age to 16 - I'll have more FSPers in Ohio than in NH. Grrr... Our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor...
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Green

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Re: What made you sign up?
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2005, 02:11:39 am »

I signed up 45 minutes after hearing about it from ... Dada Orwell, on 15 August 2003 - and 45 minutes before the deadline to votes.
I've been a small l libertarian since age 12, and my dad was a small-mouthed anarchist before that.

anarchist........    ;D

I like the sound of that.
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