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[thegotoguy]

Hello,

I just started an eBay group for FSP members:

http://groups.ebay.com/index.jspa?categoryID=10000080

It's a private group, so please contact me through the eBay website to join.  It's going to be focused on sellers more than buyers, so please join only if you're a full or part time eBay seller - or are interested in becoming one.

Chris

[thegotoguy]

I'm expanding the group to include part time sellers and "supporters" (customers & friends who want to help porcupines make a living on eBay after the move).

Hopefully, this will bring in more members (only 1 so far).

I'm a little surprised there aren't more eBayers in FSP.

Chris

[wes237]

Well I just signed up for the ebay group. I don't like joining anything since the cub scouts.  But I did anyway.

[Brian Kelley]

Please be aware that EBay has announced that it will gladly give customer information to government authorities just for the asking. That is, without subpeonas! I won't be doing business with EBay unless and until this policy is abolished, and I have strong assurance that EBay will protect my privacy.

http://research.yale.edu/lawmeme/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=925

We [eBay] try to make rules to make it difficult for people to commit fraud and easy for you [law enforcement agencies] to investigate. One is our Privacy policy. I know from investigating eBay fraud cases that eBay has probably the most generous policy of any internet company when it comes to sharing information. [emphasis added]
We do not require a subpoena except for very limited circumstances. We require a subpoena when we need the financial information from the site, credit card info or sometimes IP information.

[thegotoguy]

Brian,

Just about any employer or large company will do the same thing when pressed, regardless of what they say their "official policy" is.

Not much we can do about it unless we're willing to work for cash, not own anything, and live in a van down by the river.

Chris

[thegotoguy]

I've heard the paypal horror stories, as well.

There are some ways to protect yourself, although not 100%.

However, when accepting credit cards, there are never ways to be 100% protected against chargebacks.  The increased business is supposed to offset that risk, but it's up to each individual company to decide that for themself.

It's up to everyone to determine what their own comfort level is when dealing with big companies, the government, etc.

[Brian Kelley]

Brian,

Just about any employer or large company will do the same thing when pressed, regardless of what they say their "official policy" is.

Not much we can do about it unless we're willing to work for cash, not own anything, and live in a van down by the river.

Chris

Being pressed is one thing; this guy is inviting the cops to come get my personal information without a subpeona! That's crossing the line, and he won't get my business.

If we as FSP members take the stand that we will use our buying power to influence policy, we will be much more successful than if we say, "There's nothing we can do about it, so we'll just live with it until something better comes along."  

That passive attitude is not why I signed up.

[thegotoguy]

Brian -

At the state & local level, we can do something about it, which is why I joined FSP.  However, it's going to be a while before we have any influence over the fedgov.

All I'm saying is that it's not worth passing up the opportunity to make a decent living over fears that the feds are going to come kicking in your door.  If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.

eBay doesn't have much of a choice in their policy.  After all the bad press they've received regarding fraud, it would bankrupt them to do things any differently.  I know it sucks, but I haven't found an easier way to make money online anywhere else.

Chris

[rodschmidt]

This shows the need to have anonymizing interface organizations between conventional businesses and an internal FSP economy.  I would not keep much money in a Paypal account or the bank account used for validating it.  There are horror stories about Paypal freezing accounts of innocent people without warning and even clearing out the bank accounts tied to it.

PayPal clears out bank accounts?!  Is their name on the account?  Are they part owner?  Is this part of the contract?  Why would the bank hand over money to PayPal?  What paperwork do they present to the bank?

[rodschmidt]

Please be aware that EBay has announced that it will glady give customer information to government authorities just for the asking.

Well, hey, then I want to be a government authority!

How does PayPal verify the identity of the "government authority" that asks for information?

If Joe Blow sends email to PayPal, claiming to be Officer Joe Blow, and asks for customer information, do they just assume he's really an officer and send the information?

[thegotoguy]

Rod -

To answer both questions

1) Paypal has the right to recover money from your bank account (if it's linked to your paypal account) to cover chargebacks.  i.e. - if a buyer claims they did not receive the merchandise and you cannot prove that they did.  If you take credit cards in any way, shape, or form, there is always some risk.  There are procedures to protect yourself, but anytime you accept credit cards there is some risk.
This won't affect you as a buyer, it's more of a risk that sellers face.

2) Contact paypal for specifics, but I'm sure they won't just give account information out to anyone without properly screening them first.  They're not going to risk being sued.

I've been using eBay for over 6 years and paypal for almost 4 years now with no problems.  Many of the horror stories you hear are because people don't take appropriate precautions.  When paypal is genuinely at fault, they are pretty good about clearing things up.  (as with the fiasco that the FSP faced a few months ago with the paypal debit card debacle).

Chris

[Rholmes364]

I have been an e-Bay member and a Pay Pal Premier Bussiness customer for a couple years now and have no bad experiences. Of course I am not a huge seller, I buy mostly and play around with it. One thing to think about. I am not advocating do anything illegal, but I don't recall giving Pay Pal or e-Bay my SSN when I signed up. If I made lots of money via e-bay and had the majority of payments via Pay Pal how would they report that to the IRS? I guess they haven't though about that one yet, but they will.  Just a thought.

[thegotoguy]

Believe me - that thought has crossed my mind on more than one occasion.

The only way I would even consider it would be if I lived in another country with better banking secrecy laws(namely Switzerland).  I think fedgov could probably get the info here if they really wanted it.

If anyone is seriously considering it, I can usually get UN postage for like 30%-40% of face value.  It's only valid at the UN post office in Geneva.  You can set up a nice mail order business there and make some decent money, if you're willing to live in a foreign country.

Chris

[Brian Kelley]

Brian -

At the state & local level, we can do something about it, which is why I joined FSP.  However, it's going to be a while before we have any influence over the fedgov.

All I'm saying is that it's not worth passing up the opportunity to make a decent living over fears that the feds are going to come kicking in your door.  If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.

eBay doesn't have much of a choice in their policy.  After all the bad press they've received regarding fraud, it would bankrupt them to do things any differently.  I know it sucks, but I haven't found an easier way to make money online anywhere else.

Chris

Chris,

You're right; if the feds want to kick in my door, they're going to do it, whether or not I sell on EBay.

That's not the point.

My stand, as always, is on principle. I believe EBay's policy of inviting governments to inspect customer information is wrong, and I believe EBay should feel the pain of this immoral policy.

I believe your assessment of EBay's choices is incorrect; they do have a choice about their policy. They are going beyond what the law requires, to the detriment of their customers. And this question has very little to do with previous fraud allegations.

Good luck with your entrepreneurial endeavours. I've used EBay in the past, and had no problems, but I will not support an immoral policy. My approach is: let the market decide which policies are best. If EBay were advocating racist policies, few would likely do business with them. This policy is worse than racist - it's statist.

[thegotoguy]

Brian -

I certainly respect your choice to stand on principle.

However, I have to eat.  
Principles don't put food on the table.
There still is no better way to sell merchandise on line than eBay (if you know what you're doing).

I would almost guarantee that if you carefully went through the terms of service of just about any commercial site on the internet, you'll find something that you don't like.  You have to decide whether the trade-off is worth it to you or not.

Chris

Incidentally - I use the US Postal service to ship about 90% of the packages I ship out.  I do this because it's cheaper than UPS for similar size/value packages.  Does this make me a statist?  We have to play the hand we're dealt in life.  Unless/until a better alternative comes along, I'm going to keep using the USPS.