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Author Topic: Federal Taxes  (Read 6350 times)

corncob

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Federal Taxes
« on: October 02, 2003, 10:35:14 am »

This is my first post here--and my biggest question.  My wife and I pay a lot of taxes, but even in SC, most of that money goes directly to the federales before we ever see it.  How can the FSP help?  I'm all for paying as little state/local tax as possible, but compared to the whole tax burden it doesn't seem worth leaving SC.  (My wife's family has lived our town since the 1690s.)  --and I do realize that economic freedom is only one part of the FSP, but humor me.  Also, I love SC--we had our own "free state project" about 140 years ago, but it didn't turn out so great for us.

Joey
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cathleeninsc

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2003, 11:23:01 am »

Hi Joey,

The decision to relocate is a very personal one.  I can tell you what led us to make it.  We used to be busy with family, jobs and making ends meet. Like most people, we felt burdened by taxes but did the best we could. Life happens and worse, so we felt the need to at least  make our voice heard so we contributed to libertarian campaigns, voted and as time permitted volunteered. This time was a learning period and, sadly what we learned wasn't promising. So when the FSP happens along, we reviewed our futures critically. It boiled down to a weighing of two realistic visions of our future. One here in SC, with family nearby and weather nice, but jobs less secure and liberties slipping away steadily with no real hope of improvement despite our best efforts. Or move to a state that is already freer than here, with thousands of other like-minded people and a very real possibility of seeing significant improvements.  It didn't take us long to pick one.

It won't happen overnight and federal issues may never change in my lifetime, but I have to be where I feel like I have a fighting chance. I can't go back to being ignorant.

Cathleen in SC
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Leonard

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2003, 11:54:51 am »

My wife and I pay a lot of taxes, but even in SC, most of that money goes directly to the federales before we ever see it.  How can the FSP help?  

It can't to any substantial degree.

We may eventually be able to elect two US Senators who are more libertarian than any current senator.  And those two may be able to help lead the Senate and thus the Federals in a lower-taxing direction.  But two out of 100 is not much power.

Concentrating libertarians into one state may help to change the political dynamic of the country.  As NH stays small government and booms, while big-government states like California stagnate, people will notice.  Eventually we hope to turn the entire country around.  But until then, the Federal government will continue to be the largest enemy of economic freedom to us all.  There's nothing any of us can do about that, where we are or in NH.

Quote
I'm all for paying as little state/local tax as possible, but compared to the whole tax burden it doesn't seem worth leaving SC.  

For many, even most people, it is probably true that they will take a hit on total after-tax standard of moving to NH.  That's because they'll be changing job; even though they'll be paying less in taxes they'll be getting less income.   If standard of living is the only criteria that matters, the FSP is not for you.

Most of us are in it for ideological reasons.
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rodschmidt

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How can the FSP help reduce Federal Taxes?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2003, 01:47:52 am »

Maybe the New Hampshire legislature could create some programs that would be tax-deductible for us to participate in.  I know very little of this area.  My basic idea is that we would put our money into some state program blessed by the Feds.

Use government trading of funds to fight government taking of funds.  Kind of like jumping out of the fire into the frying pan.  As someone said of tax-free municipal bonds:  "Why would they want to tax you?  The government already has ALL your money."

Examples:
   Tax-free municipal or state bonds
   Education tax credits
   IRA-type investments


Apart from that kind of thing, the short answer is "nothing."  The Federalist Papers say very clearly that the Fedgov taxes the individual directly, without the intermediary of the State.  This is one of the main reasons the Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation.

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Republicans=evil

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2003, 07:50:39 pm »

I'm shocked :o anybody involved with the FSP  would even raise such a question.The obvious solution here,is to hook up with the tax-freedom movement (eg Bob Schultz,We The People),and convince as many people in The Free State as possible,simply not to file.Good old passive noncompliance. 8)
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rodschmidt

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2003, 12:35:40 am »

I'm shocked :o anybody involved with the FSP  would even raise such a question.The obvious solution here,is to hook up with the tax-freedom movement (eg Bob Schultz,We The People),and convince as many people in The Free State as possible,simply not to file.Good old passive noncompliance. 8)

One course of action does not exclude the other.  Not everybody in New Hampshire will stop filing just because The Saviors Have Arrived.  An increased anti-tax influence in the Legislature can be expressed in several ways.
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atr

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Re: Federal Taxes
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2003, 03:36:28 pm »

Also, the state government can take a role in fighting to reduce the vast unconstitutional expansion of federal authority, which is one reason why your federal tax burden is so high.

For example, if the federal government no longer spent money on health care, education, and social security, none of which are authorized by the Constitution, the federal budget would be roughly half of what it is today. Hopefully, the tax burden would be cut in half, too.
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rdeacon

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2003, 10:00:42 am »

Agreed.  I don't think that noncompliance will work.  This is just IMHO.  I'd rather work within the state house to do what we can.  And then, after we've made great changes in NH, we try to become a major entity in the nation's political system.  The FSP was founded on beating the system at its own game - beating federal taxes requires the same tactic.

I'm shocked :o anybody involved with the FSP  would even raise such a question.The obvious solution here,is to hook up with the tax-freedom movement (eg Bob Schultz,We The People),and convince as many people in The Free State as possible,simply not to file.Good old passive noncompliance. 8)

One course of action does not exclude the other.  Not everybody in New Hampshire will stop filing just because The Saviors Have Arrived.  An increased anti-tax influence in the Legislature can be expressed in several ways.
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Russell Kanning

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2003, 06:58:18 pm »

     You are right that the tax situation is not going to be incredibly different for you going from SC to NH. I am going to move for the same reasons as everyone above. It is our chance to change things.
     I already don't 'pay my fair share'. I haven't payed Federal Income taxes or SocSec since '98. I like to think of it as 'starving the beast'. I am looking forward to helping the people of NH to lower thier taxes further and if some other crazies like me (rock on R=Evil) want to go a little further, than all the better. As many people have mentioned, the Fed Gov is going to be our real roadblock, but we will succeed.

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ProteusLizz

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2003, 09:13:39 pm »

    You are right that the tax situation is not going to be incredibly different for you going from SC to NH. I am going to move for the same reasons as everyone above. It is our chance to change things.
     I already don't 'pay my fair share'. I haven't payed Federal Income taxes or SocSec since '98. I like to think of it as 'starving the beast'. I am looking forward to helping the people of NH to lower thier taxes further and if some other crazies like me (rock on R=Evil) want to go a little further, than all the better. As many people have mentioned, the Fed Gov is going to be our real roadblock, but we will succeed.



Well ^5 to evil and Russ.........I havent filed since '99 :)
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LeopardPM

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2003, 02:09:29 am »

considering that these forums and posts can and probably are being read by government employees (read: IRS), I would never divulge my years of 'tax Evasion', that is, if I ever evaded taxes in the past....   ;) ;) ;)

[Attention IRS Worker:  I am a good little boy, I pay as much as I can as often as I can - I follow the rule of law.  Please do not audit me as it would be a costly endeavor from which you would reap no fruit... can't get blood from a stone as they say...]

michael
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Russell Kanning

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2003, 10:18:37 am »

     I like the think of it more like the signers of the Declaration of Independance. Here is my John Hancock

Russell Kanning

     It is better to fight tyranny than develop a working relationship with it. Don't get me wrong. I love our country. It is still a wonderful place to be, but I bet the Brittish Colonies were a better place to live than most of the world and then they made it better! We are going to win and everyone in America and the world will be better because of what we did.
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

Tracy Saboe

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2003, 03:58:15 am »

It's my hope that New Hampshire will be able to pass a law nulifying the Federal income taxes.

States used to nulify government taxes all the time, untill the civil war.

When Andrew Jackson raised Tarrifs, South Carolina refused. And Jackson backed down. The right to state nulification, and ultimately sucecion was paramount.

My hope is that the Free State project pass an act nulifying the Federal Income Tax. It already has a bill on the docet for nulifying the Patriot Act, and Many states and local governments around the country are doing that. State and county nulification is going to hopefully become a fad because of federal abuses.

The State could make a law:

Nulifying the Federal income Tax
Making it illegal for State, and local police and governments to cooporate with the Feds in enforcing the Federal income Tax.

Making it illegal for the IRS, and the Justice Department to investigate people residing in New Hampshire.

Forcing any federal agent to both clear it with the State police and County and City police before they are allowed to investigate any federal crime.

Hopefully, in the Free State we will have some libertarian Counties, and Cities. County Sheriff have the right to through the Feds out of town on a whim. Always have. I hope is that, we can ellect a libertarian Sherif, and a libertarian Chief of Police in the local where I live, who refuses to enforce, and who refuses to recognize the Feds power to investigate and enforce the Federal income Tax. A county Sherrifs Dept. and a City Police Dept, who will protect the citizens from the Feds, and who will use defencive force against Federal agents if neccessary to do just that. It's my hope that the State police will also have a primary purpose of protecting New Hampshirites from Federal Tyrrany.

I'm not advocating Secesetion. I am advocating State nulification.

Tracy Saboe
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Terry 1956

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2003, 04:33:22 pm »

considering that these forums and posts can and probably are being read by government employees (read: IRS), I would never divulge my years of 'tax Evasion', that is, if I ever evaded taxes in the past....   ;) ;) ;)

[Attention IRS Worker:  I am a good little boy, I pay as much as I can as often as I can - I follow the rule of law.  Please do not audit me as it would be a costly endeavor from which you would reap no fruit... can't get blood from a stone as they say...]

michael
                                                                             
If you don't wish to take the tax protest route look for every legal loophole and shelter possible and cost effective( unless you actually do want to pay 10,000 dollars a year in order not to pay 9,000 in taxes). Look for legal ways to get the money the government extorts from you return to you in the form of legal grants, credits and programs but I think it would be unethical to take more than you pay out each year or get permisson from other tax payers who are paying the balance. For example if I get 10,000 a year from Social Security but I am only paying 8,000 a year in Federal taxes, I can ask my nephews if they are at least paying 2,000 a year if it is ok to take the Social Security check. I can give the total 10,000 dollars to help end the Social Security program if I want. I do think there are probally  various legal ways free state office holders could pursue in order to protect their employers( the ones who elected them) from the federal government and if they don't  even try demand a recall.
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Talon

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Re:Federal Taxes
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2003, 03:16:25 am »

I'm not sure I follow... ???

How can a local sheriff kick a federal agent out of his town? Don't federal agents have jurisdiction over the entire country (when federal crimes are commited)? Isn't that one of the ideas behind federal agents? So local good 'ole boys can't get away with anything the local sheriff decides is ok?

On the other hand, I can easily see passing state laws, or repealing them, so that in no way can any NH state official aide the Federal goverment in collecting/investigating these taxes.

So, for those that haven't paid their federal taxes in awhile, a question. Do you not believe that the federal tax system is necessary at all? Or is it better in your opinion to protest all the pork by not paying? I'm of the opinion that probably 70% of the federal budget is not necessary but I very strongly believe that such things as the Military must be funded at adequate levels which must be paid through taxes. Unless of course we allow commericial sponsorship...The 82nd Airborne, brought to you by Subway..... ;D
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