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Author Topic: What is Liberty?  (Read 7332 times)

rodschmidt

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Re:What is Liberty? (also determinism and quantum mechanics)
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2003, 12:26:37 am »

The idea of "wavefunction collapse" is old, inaccurate and imprecise.  This "collapse" is not a physical event but merely an accounting event.  I.e. there is no possible test to measure whether a collapse has happened or not.

I say this in reaction to claims that an observation of one of two entangled particles "instantaneously causes the other faraway one to collapse".  No event happens to the other particle, instantantaneously or otherwise.  No kind of monitoring of the other particle could detect the moment when you fiddled around with your particle.  
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Zack Bass

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Re:Quantum Philosophy
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2003, 04:22:38 am »



My reasoning goes like this:  I get out of QM that the past is not deterministic, there is not one unique past.  Instead, all pasts that are consistent with the present are equally ... how do I say this ... equally real, equally historic, they all equally happened.  


But the present allows us to find out a hell of a lot of specific details about the past, and almost no details about the future.  For example, we know that the earth was a lot hotter 4 billion years ago, that dinosaurs were around for a while, and that Rodney King kept getting up off the ground and lunging at the cops.  The more we look, the more information we find in the present about the past, captured in rocks and videotapes and our memories and computer memories.  We have zero information about the future.
In certain general terms, we do know some things about the future better than we know about the past - if we assume that nothing has recorded specific details.  For example, if we see a glass of water that has recently had some milk poured into it, we may not know from which side the milk originated, but we do know that in a while it will be homogeneously dispersed throughout the water.  That is misleading, though, because there are umpteen jillion different ways that milk can be dispersed throughout the water, and we can't know which one will prevail.
That's why Entropy increases; it's the encoded information about the past - even if we aren't capable of decoding it.  One man's Noise is another man's Information.

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I also get that the past and the future are not fundamentally different, they follow the same rules.  


Not if you consider Gravity they don't.  Drop your watch into that black hole.
Aside from that, yeah, if you reverse Charge, Parity, and Time you see the exact same interaction.  But Gravity ye shall have always with you, destroying reversibility.

Roger Penrose (Shadows of the Mind) even uses this to get a handle on State-Vector Reduction ("WaveFunction Collapse") in a possible Quantum Gravity Theory.  He imagines one future in which a mass is in a slightly different position than in another future.  This mass has a different gravitational field in each future, so the Quantum State involves a superposition of the two space-time geometries.  If the scale of the difference in the two space-time geometries is significant on the the Planck scale, Reduction will occur in a reasonable time (the time scale depends on the magnitude of the mass).  Irreversibly.  The superposition no longer exists, and there is no further entanglement.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2003, 04:26:32 am by Zack Bass »
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RhythmStar

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Re:What is Liberty?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2003, 04:49:25 am »



Basically, it postulates that 4D space-time is a brane suspended in the 5th dimension like a sheet.   There are other sheets.  Gravity acts across the 5th dimension and is the only force than does so.


There may be forces that act across additional dimensions.  Unfortunately, this would mean that they follow an inverse-cube rather than an inverse-square dropoff in strength with distance.  Gravity doesn't do that.


What we see and measure is in our own frame of reference (space-time).  We have no indication how it seems from a higher-dimensional one.  Perhaps our entire brane is a special case in the relativity of the 5th dimension and the equations governing gravity in that frame do not have measurable effects within our frame?  

RS
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Irony is the innate perversity of circumstance. -- William House

Zack Bass

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Re:What is Liberty?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2003, 05:24:03 am »




There may be forces that act across additional dimensions.  Unfortunately, this would mean that they follow an inverse-cube rather than an inverse-square dropoff in strength with distance.  Gravity doesn't do that.


What we see and measure is in our own frame of reference (space-time).  We have no indication how it seems from a higher-dimensional one.  Perhaps our entire brane is a special case in the relativity of the 5th dimension and the equations governing gravity in that frame do not have measurable effects within our frame?  


If Gravity were a real Force, then it would follow that inverse-cube relationship if it extended to one other dimension.  But it's different from any other "force" - it's best described in terms of space-time geometry rather than in terms of attraction.  So yeah, it could affect another dimension and still behave the way we see it here, for all I know.
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