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Author Topic: Is 20,000 enough?  (Read 22589 times)

JasonPSorens

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2002, 03:16:53 pm »

But as you noted, we don't have to liberate every town in a state.  As for large counties, I assume they could be liberated in the same way a state is.  There's a bigger leap from town to county level, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

JasonPSorens

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2002, 12:20:32 pm »

That's a good point, Joe - some people will probably move in who will not be activists, and we'd need to have a separate category for them.  I guess we could include them in the "Friends of the FSP" category.  That would include those who cannot sign the Statement of Intent because they cannot pledge to exert the "maximum feasible effort" toward the creation of a minimal-government society.  I actually don't think a lot of these non-activists will be moving in, though a lot of them may support us in various ways from outside.  The reason is that if you're willing to spend a few thousand dollars and change jobs to move to another state, you'll probably also be willing to put up posters, donate a hundred bucks to campaigns once in a while, and even serve on a local board or two. ;)
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Robert H.

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2002, 03:52:19 am »

Many excellent points here, Joe.

The FSP cannot, must not fail!  The risk of our failure would equate to what Thomas Jefferson warned of in his draft of the Kentucky Resolution of 1798 in regard to the Alien and Sedition Acts:

"The several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their General Government...

These and successive acts of the same character, unless arrested at the threshold, [will] necessarily drive these States into revolution and blood, and will furnish new calumnies against republican government, and new pretexts for those who wish it to be believed that man cannot be governed but by a rod of iron..."  

If we fail, we make a mockery of self-government before a group of adversaries who will eagerly latch onto that example as a justification of the nanny state.  

catsRus

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2002, 11:01:03 am »

Just my thoughts:

I doubt I would join much of anything ever, in the event I thought freedom was blooming in a state i just might move there. The membership of FSP will likely have little meaning on the big picture, there's lots of us lone wolf's who wont join anything :) but we do want freedom.
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mlilback

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2002, 04:40:50 pm »

Joe,

I think you raise a lot of good points, but are a bit pessemistic about antagonism towards politics.

I'm INTP/ENTP, and largely don't like leadership positions because I don't like controlling others. But I have no problem being a leader and only resent the games that our system requires you to play to be a public leader.

I went to school being an idealist who thought I could "make a difference". I went to DC hoping to be a journalist or politician, but quickly learned how corrupt our system is and grew to have no tolerance for it. So now I rarely pay attention to the news or government.

I would love to spread that knowledge to take back the system. I've worked in the press, met and carefully followed political insiders (George Stephanopolous, Ed Rollins, etc.), and studied how the system works. While I have no respect for it and the people who lust for it, I know how it works.

And I know there are more people out there like myself. I know a lot of people from school who got fed up with the way the system worked and left the political scene. There have to be large numbers of them... the main issue is to find them.

I've got a few ideas on things that FSP could do to be more attractive to them, and will try to post them for discussion soon.

Mark
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mlilback

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2002, 07:31:19 pm »

From the campaign work I've seen, you normally just need 2-3 good leaders per group that can give the other activists things to do. The two most important things I've seen in campaigns are 1) getting rid of the loud-mouths who won't do any work but slow everything down and 2) having enough work organized and ready for volunteers. Having 10, 1000, or 20,000 volunteers won't do any good without those two things.

Mark
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catsRus

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2002, 09:35:16 pm »

Thanks for the welcome Joe and Mouseborg.
You both make good points, i am willing to help just let me know how! Sorry i cant say i have a lot of experience in politics.
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Steve

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2002, 04:19:48 pm »

Quote
Stumpy wrote:
There will also be single-issue folks who will come to the Free State because of the liberalization of their issue. Some examples include gun rights advocates, home schoolers, etc.

These people/groups may not join the FSP, but they will fight with us when their issue is being debated.


And fight against us on any other issue.
Let's try to invite only those who are at least 80% libertarian, and filter out the violent.  We need at least 20K libertarians without dross.
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Steve

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2002, 04:37:40 pm »

Quote
Joe, aka, Solitar wrote:
[one hell of a lot]

Good stuff Joe, and in general I agree.  In the end, 20K will not be enough.  But go back to your basics: the 20K signup figure is meant to solve a collective action problem.  It's the old, "Well I will if you will" problem, e.g. paying for a public good like streetlights.  It will make no sense whatsoever for 10 people to move if no one else does, and it will cost a lot.  To solve this, those wanting the change bind themselves in an agreement contingent on a minimum number participating.  20K will probably not be enough in the end to create a libertarian majority, but would be the minimum to make change and be a viable seed crystal (critical mass, tipping point--choose your metaphor) to attract others who were unwilling or unable at the time to sign the agreement.

I agree that we should try to exceed the 20K figure (and judging by the pace of signups, we will) and that we must not fail--let's keep up the outreach!  

If the 20K figure is half the LP membership, where the hell are they?
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Stumpy

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2002, 06:51:48 pm »


Quote
Stumpy wrote:
There will also be single-issue folks who will come to the Free State because of the liberalization of their issue. Some examples include gun rights advocates, home schoolers, etc.

These people/groups may not join the FSP, but they will fight with us when their issue is being debated.


And fight against us on any other issue.
Let's try to invite only those who are at least 80% libertarian, and filter out the violent.  We need at least 20K libertarians without dross.


It hasn’t been suggested to invite these people.

But make no mistake, once this thing becomes widely known, the single-issue people (gun rights, home-schoolers, NORML, etc) will come. I think it would be foolish not to enlist their help.

I don’t believe most will fight against us on other issues. Some may, but if most are like the single-issue folks that I know, they aren’t going to fight us on other issues.
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milas59

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2002, 04:06:26 pm »

Joe

AS always, I loved your analysis of How Its Gonna  Be! IT reminds me of our LP's general lack of success for the very same reasons .

IF there are indeed, because of the political organization, states where even 50,000 wont be enough, do we have anyone doing the analysis for the number of FSPers needed for success as the  one man did  for MT and AK (was it?) on Why Not The Smallest List ?

Regardless of Jason's  feeling that one million is small enough, I cant help but feel, given my experience in VT and NH, seeing their disparities of population and population growth,  that we could probably never succeed in NH but could, in spite of the socialists already being there, succeed in VT.

AS someone also posted on Why Not The Smallest, isnt it time we either do the homework that proves the million-plus states(in 2025) can be taken over or drop them from our list of eligibles?

Arent we doing FSPers and libertarians everywhere a disservice to keep  on the list those states where we have very little  chance for success?

Peter Baker
(willing to move anywhere , even back to socialist VT)
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2002, 08:45:53 am »

States over 1 million population are doable only if they have certain attractive features that override their deficiency in population.  We eliminated Hawaii and Rhode Island outright because, even though they satisfy the population criterion, they would clearly be out of our reach.  So how do we figure out whether their attractive features outweigh the negatives?  Use the state comparison matrix!  Weight voting population and campaign spending higher than the other variables (put together), but use the other variables as well, and see what comes out.  

Formerly NH did well despite its population; the expense of the latest election has knocked it down somewhat.  ID does moderately well also.  Generally states like WY, DE, and AK are at the top, however (VT, ND, SD, NH, and ID being clustered together).  Of course, if you throw the jobs issue in there, perhaps some people would say it disqualifies WY, AK, VT, and ND.  Then SD and DE start to look good.  Some people think DE should be eliminated for lifestyle reasons.  Then SD looks like the best low-population state, but MT, ID, and NH follow not far behind.  I'm going to synthesize all of this in a new essay.  Basically, a case can be made for just about any state you want, but these cases depend on different arguments/weightings.  The argument about "which state" then boils down to an argument over which factors are important, and whether a state should be disqualified for a really bad showing on some of the particular variables.
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SandyPrice

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2002, 04:18:25 pm »

Jason, I have been sending a lot of people to the home page of FSP and have mentioned for them to read the information and if they have questions to join us here.  

I am seeing a lot of automatic negative comments from these folks and I have had to reassure them it will only work of the people involved want it to.

Look at the millions of people who followed Perot with his promise of a better form of government.  I certainly jumped in because he offered thousands of us what we were looking for.

We need to learn how to sell the FSP!  Nobody can change anything over night.  We need to move into an area become established, join the local clubs and chambers of commerce and then start promoting our plans.  I can see offering an open forum in the local newspaper where people can see that we aren't a religious commune.  

Back in the 60s there were hundreds of organized groups heading out into the smaller states who wanted to grow their own food, get their children back to nature and simply live a better more natural life.  I wrote to many of these groups because I was so fed up with the culture and society in my area.  None of them really filled the bill for me but had it been based on a totally free society (meaning without federal orders 24/7) I probably would have checked it out.  All these nature groups were in Oregon, and yes, most of them were religious cults.  They made their first mistake by requesting a not-for-profit category and the government closed them down.

Anyway we may get some new blood in here in the next few weeks.  

I just read that Eugene Oregone just passed a city ordinance that they are rejecting the Patriots Act and it will be interesting to see how this works out.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2002, 10:16:01 am »

Well, the problem with the Alaska example is that those are just registered voters.  There are over 300,000 registered Libertarians across the country, but only a small minority of these are activists.  The AIP has fewer than 1,000 paid-up members.  So again, if our 20,000 are activists, we'd be increasing the influence of freedom activists in Alaska probably 20 times over or more.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Jude

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Re:Is 20,000 enough?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2002, 10:44:47 am »

I imagine there will be more activists than that, Joe. Getting people to move will be more difficult than getting them to be active activists. I just hope people put their money where their mouth is when it comes time to pack up and ship out.
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"If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning."  - Frederick Douglass, former slave
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