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[Herself]

Voluntary division of labor is part and parcel of Capitalism.  That's what sets it apart: you can take (or refuse) any job you can talk your way into.

     The real division is between command economies and free economies; and the free economies -- unlike, oh, the United States, Europe or Red China -- are capitalist economies.  The rest are various flavors of fascism, socialism and autocracy.  There ain't no such thing as a "mixed economy"* once the camel of Government has its nose in the tent, the market is no longer free.

     --Herself
_______________________
*This is what the nations of the self-described "free world" have, mixed economies.  Whoopee, we're slightly less restricted than the "unfree" world.  This is the same thinking that claims mistreatment of prisioners is okay as long as it's not as bad as mistreatment of prisioners done by one's opponent.  Or that I'm a better person than a strangler if I only choke you half to death, and that's as good as sainthood....  Some comfort!

[LeRuineur6]

No, division of labor is part of capitalism!  If I had to grow all of my own food, what time would I have to go to work--wouldn't we just turn the clock back to the pre-21st century, or the Middle Ages?  Even Communism has division of labor, at least in small groups!

What I'm getting at is that in order to become more independent, we must make (CREATE) a higher percentage of the stuff we use.

To work in a factory to feed your family is to be the slave of machines.  The less things you create, and the more you consume, the more money you have to make by working in the factory.

To utilize machines at home to feed your family is to be the master of machines.  For example, using a tractor to tend to your garden rather than buying the same foods, or using a bread machine to make your own bread rather than buying it.

We make our own bread and it is far cheaper, healthier, and better tasting than any bread at the store, and it only takes a few minutes of preparation to make because we utilize a machine to do the mixing, kneading, rising, and baking for us.

Grow or purchase some coffee mix from the store and make it with your own cheap coffee maker rather than buying it at Starbucks for THREE times the cost when the result is the same exact product.  (Note:  I hate coffee. )

The more capable you are of utilizing machines, or other methods, to efficiently create the things that you need, to your own specifications, the more independent you will be and the further the money you earn will go toward your quality of life.

This is not a low-tech lifestyle, this is the highest-tech lifestyle available.  

[nonluddite]

No, division of labor is part of capitalism!  If I had to grow all of my own food, what time would I have to go to work--wouldn't we just turn the clock back to the pre-21st century, or the Middle Ages?  Even Communism has division of labor, at least in small groups!

What I'm getting at is that in order to become more independent, we must make (CREATE) a higher percentage of the stuff we use.

To work in a factory to feed your family is to be the slave of machines.  The less things you create, and the more you consume, the more money you have to make by working in the factory.

To utilize machines at home to feed your family is to be the master of machines.  For example, using a tractor to tend to your garden rather than buying the same foods, or using a bread machine to make your own bread rather than buying it.

We make our own bread and it is far cheaper, healthier, and better tasting than any bread at the store, and it only takes a few minutes of preparation to make because we utilize a machine to do the mixing, kneading, rising, and baking for us.

Grow or purchase some coffee mix from the store and make it with your own cheap coffee maker rather than buying it at Starbucks for THREE times the cost when the result is the same exact product.  (Note:  I hate coffee. )

The more capable you are of utilizing machines, or other methods, to efficiently create the things that you need, to your own specifications, the more independent you will be and the further the money you earn will go toward your quality of life.

This is not a low-tech lifestyle, this is the highest-tech lifestyle available.  

Aside from not being able to grow coffee plants in the climate I live in, well, maybe if I installed a heated greenhouse, sometimes it isn't worth doing many things ourselves!  Sure I can (and sometimes do) make bread at home, I still buy the flour and oil at the grocery store instead of doing the growing and milling myself.  Also there are certain things that I can't do even if I wanted to--donuts, pizza, and fast food come to mind.  And why is that bad?--or when does it become bad, by your definition?

[RhythmStar]

FWIW, while I do believe that the ability to create your own food from the natural world is an important and all-to-rare skill, I think that individual energy independence is more pressing today.  If you can produce your own electricity and transportation fuel, then you can continue a high-tech lifestyle when others are in the dark, or reading by their hand-made candle light.

RS

[nonluddite]

FWIW, while I do believe that the ability to create your own food from the natural world is an important and all-to-rare skill, I think that individual energy independence is more pressing today.  If you can produce your own electricity and transportation fuel, then you can continue a high-tech lifestyle when others are in the dark, or reading by their hand-made candle light.

RS

So how am I supposed to produce my own fuel or power?  Solar power just sucks here and the wind is light if it blows at all!  I don't live by a river, and if I did I'd have to dam it and we all "KNOW" that that's bad....  

I don't keep bees, have livestock, or raise crops to make wax for candles or oil for lamps.  What I do have, is something that other people value (my labor), which I get paid for, then I can exchange that with other people for those things I need!   Maybe you've heard of it; it's called the division of labor and the marketplace.

[Pat K]

"So how am I supposed to produce my own fuel or power"

Eat lots of beans my friend lots and lots of beans.

[RhythmStar]

FWIW, while I do believe that the ability to create your own food from the natural world is an important and all-to-rare skill, I think that individual energy independence is more pressing today.  If you can produce your own electricity and transportation fuel, then you can continue a high-tech lifestyle when others are in the dark, or reading by their hand-made candle light.

RS

So how am I supposed to produce my own fuel or power?  Solar power just sucks here and the wind is light if it blows at all!  I don't live by a river, and if I did I'd have to dam it and we all "KNOW" that that's bad....  

I don't keep bees, have livestock, or raise crops to make wax for candles or oil for lamps.  What I do have, is something that other people value (my labor), which I get paid for, then I can exchange that with other people for those things I need!   Maybe you've heard of it; it's called the division of labor and the marketplace.

So, you are a slave to society and cannot survive without it.  Don't feel too bad, most residents of the developed nations are like that today.

As to the question, while solar is less viable in northern climes, don't dismiss it out-of-hand -- successful experiments in year-round solar power have been conducted in places like Alaska.   And while eating lots of beans might not be the ticket, anyone can build a system that leverages locally-produced waste and garbage to produce methane -- villages in India do it, so can Americans.

BTW, don't just look at high-priced silicon-based photoelectrics.  The coming wave of solar devices will be based on TiO2 and plant dyes:

http://www.acs.comcen.com.au/TiO2solar.html

Of course, with a little research, it ought to be possible to replicate Changing World Technology's oil-from-garbage thermal depolymerization process on a small scale.  As long as you don't try to sell the product, you don't have to worry about their patents, so that's no problem -- all it takes is ingenuity.

Personal energy independence will make more sense as the oil economy goes into it's more chaotic phases.  Don't worry if it sounds outlandish today -- I'm usually about 10 years ahead of the curve, but that's no reason for you not to profit from the information.  

RS

[nonluddite]

FWIW, while I do believe that the ability to create your own food from the natural world is an important and all-to-rare skill, I think that individual energy independence is more pressing today.  If you can produce your own electricity and transportation fuel, then you can continue a high-tech lifestyle when others are in the dark, or reading by their hand-made candle light.

RS

So how am I supposed to produce my own fuel or power?  Solar power just sucks here and the wind is light if it blows at all!  I don't live by a river, and if I did I'd have to dam it and we all "KNOW" that that's bad....  

I don't keep bees, have livestock, or raise crops to make wax for candles or oil for lamps.  What I do have, is something that other people value (my labor), which I get paid for, then I can exchange that with other people for those things I need!   Maybe you've heard of it; it's called the division of labor and the marketplace.

So, you are a slave to society and cannot survive without it.  Don't feel too bad, most residents of the developed nations are like that today.

And I wonder what made us developed?

As to the question, while solar is less viable in northern climes, don't dismiss it out-of-hand -- successful experiments in year-round solar power have been conducted in places like Alaska.

I believe that Alaska gets more sunlight than the Northeast.

And while eating lots of beans might not be the ticket, anyone can build a system that leverages locally-produced waste and garbage to produce methane -- villages in India do it, so can Americans.

I saw a documentary on that!  The local kids picked up the holy cow's dung and used it to produce methane and electricity.  Unfortunately, it was only enough to power 1 lightbulb per house for a few hours after sunset.

BTW, don't just look at high-priced silicon-based photoelectrics.  The coming wave of solar devices will be based on TiO2 and plant dyes:

http://www.acs.comcen.com.au/TiO2solar.html

Of course, with a little research, it ought to be possible to replicate Changing World Technology's oil-from-garbage thermal depolymerization process on a small scale.  As long as you don't try to sell the product, you don't have to worry about their patents, so that's no problem -- all it takes is ingenuity.

Personal energy independence will make more sense as the oil economy goes into it's more chaotic phases.  Don't worry if it sounds outlandish today -- I'm usually about 10 years ahead of the curve, but that's no reason for you not to profit from the information.  

RS

If we will be so self sustaining, where is all of this garbage going to come from, old landfills?

[SteveA]

And while eating lots of beans might not be the ticket, anyone can build a system that leverages locally-produced waste and garbage to produce methane -- villages in India do it, so can Americans.

I saw a documentary on that!  The local kids picked up the holy cow's dung and used it to produce methane and electricity.  Unfortunately, it was only enough to power 1 lightbulb per house for a few hours after sunset.

There's been some nice technology for using alcohols in fuel cells.  I read an article in EE Times a while ago about a battery replacement using a methanol wet cell, passive circulation, no pump or cleaning required and power densties a few times higher than lithium-ion batteries.  It wouldn't power your washing machine directly without some resevoir but alcohol isn't a very exotic fuel.  I assume wood or grain alcohol would work similarly.

http://www.neahpower.com/news/newsfiles/SeattleTimes-03.10.03.pdf

http://www.eetimes.com/at/hpm/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=18308323&kc=6380

I guess it's not a viable alternative yet but something to look forward to.

[LeRuineur6]

I'll explain the concept by example.

I have 24 total pieces of furniture in my apartment, including shelves, tables, chairs, and other large things that can be made with wood.

When I own a house and some land later down the road, I'll be able to create most of this furniture, I estimate about 21 out of the 24 pieces of furniture, out of the wood on my property.  I'll gain valuable experience and tools for the future, and the results will be very rewarding.  Few trees will be used.  I will save thousands of dollars by using basic tools and doing the work in my spare time, while still holding a profitable career.  My quality of living will increase.

What is "bad" in my opinion?  Making 0% of what you use is bad.  What if you lose your job?  What if the economy tanks?  You are entirely dependent upon society, so you WILL suffer unless you find someone who wants your labor.

During the Great Depression, almost everyone's quality of life was in direct correlation to their ability to create more of the things they needed.

One of my old friends had a father who was laid-off by IBM two years ago in Vermont.  Nobody wanted his specialized labor.  He ended up selling generic labor in the form of random odd jobs for a few hundred dollars here and there.  He almost lost his house.

One of my old coworkers was laid off by my previous employer directly after her husband was laid off by IBM.  Nobody wanted their labor.  They lost their house.

During the Great Depression, my grandfather hardly even noticed the economic conditions.  Nothing changed in his life.  Why?  Because his family produced almost EVERYTHING they needed to survive, only stopping at the store once in a while to buy fuel, sugar, and coffee.  Meanwhile, once-rich stock brokers committed suicide.

This is not theory.  This is reality.  If you cannot create anything but your own specialized labor, then you are dependent upon society and vulnerable to utter misery given commonly-occurring circumstances such as recessions, layoffs, wars, and famine.

No one wants to be vulnerable to these circumstances, but everyone is.

[5thconcerto]

During the Great Depression, my grandfather hardly even noticed the economic conditions.  Nothing changed in his life.  Why?  Because his family produced almost EVERYTHING they needed to survive, only stopping at the store once in a while to buy fuel, sugar, and coffee.  Meanwhile, once-rich stock brokers committed suicide.

My father and mother grew up in the depression, and lived in Whitefield, NH. They only knew about the depression from the newspapers and radio. Nothing changed for them. They both grew up on a farm. They raised their food, and cut their firewood for themselves and sold some to others. My father's father supplied firewood to the Mountain View Grand Hotel, which has just recently been renovated and re-opened.

[SteveA]

I feel very much as you do, LeRuineur.

There are primarily two reasons that I would like to be relatively self-sufficient (maybe 50% of the food, water, energy etc. I can provide myself):

1.  You don't have to worry as much about keeping up with bills.  Free time and retirement are that much easier to achieve.  So you can possibly work at home or part time for some supplimental income and take care of the rest yourself.  If you get sick, you've got a buffer between you and the streets.

2.  If a large scale crisis occured, it might actually be a lifesaver to have enough resources to survive for a while till things recover.  We've been rather lucky so far, but you never know ...

[RidleyReport]

OK my little voice is talking again.  It says Bush will win and there will be a frenzy of violence by the hardcore left as a result.  

Not saying this will happen...it's just a suspicion I'm recording for posterity.

[RidleyReport]

The other one I"ve been thinking about is that of terrorists blowing up a dam.   Hope I'm wrong since I live downstream from one!

Back in '01 our police snagged a bunch of middle easterners scoping out a lake near Dallas...they said they were on a UN peace mission.  Now that right there should be an indicator they were up to something!   Don't know what came of this.

Oh here's my other one:  I'm suspecting China will become the world's superpower over the next 50 years (that's the natural state of affairs, interrupted only by imperialism and communism).  We'll lose domination of space unless the private space companies can bridge the gap.  

[RidleyReport]

What else does my little voice say... well, it say Benson will win the election because historical precedent indicates he will.    But I could be wrong, and he'd behind i the polls at the moment.