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Author Topic: Federal Land Ownership Maps!  (Read 53913 times)

Karl

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2003, 08:35:30 am »

...especially since the feds own all the best land in WY.


Please stop saying this.  I've been to Wyoming (spent over a week there and drove 900 miles).  Not only do the feds not own all of the best land, they (from what I saw) do not even own almost all, or close to all, or even near all.  Most of the good land  that I saw in the 900 miles was privately owned.  


They may not own "all" of the quality land, but certainly they own "the vast majority" of it, leaving considerablly less to private owners than is available to private owners in NH.  The 900 miles of privately owned land I'm sure was sagebrush.  Many of the pictures you took on your trip were of Federal land.

The typical non-Federal Wyoming landscape:

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LeRuineur6

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2003, 10:33:20 am »

LOL!!!   :D :D :D

It's funny that the Free State Project logo at the top of the screen sure doesn't look like that.

The FSP logo looks like NH, VT, ME, or MT.

You can call it foreshadowing if you want, but it's a very funny coincidence that NH is a frontrunner as well, isn't it?   :)
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Michelle

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2003, 10:52:18 am »

An FSP member from Colorado called me at home the other day.

I debated about whether to post this or not (because I know some will find it offensive), but he kept saying to me "you have to let them know...you really need to let them know" (he doesn't have Internet/email access)...

Anyhow, the point he wanted to make is that he finds Wyoming to be a "dry, brown, windy, dusty, desolate place." He said it is the "type of place you visit for one day and never want to go back to."  :P

He did say that the parts owned by the feds are quite pretty, but that Wyoming has absolutely "nothing to offer the average person."

I know there are some here that disagree. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But honestly, dry, brown, dusty, windy, and desolate sounds decidedly unappealing to me!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2003, 11:09:44 am by Michelle »
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LeRuineur6

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2003, 10:55:45 am »

Maybe if WY wins we could put that hideous picture on the website to help people see what they will be getting themselves into.

You mean like this?


LOL!   ;D
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Karl

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2003, 10:57:25 am »

ROFLMAO!   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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johnadams

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2003, 11:09:00 am »

An FSP member from Colorado called me at home the other day.

I debated about whether to post this or not (because I know some will find it offensive), but he kept saying to me "you have to let them know...you really need to let them know" (he doesn't have Internet/email access)...

Anyhow, the point he wanted to make is that he finds Wyoming to be a "dry, brown, windy, dusty, desolate place." He said it is the "type of place you visit for one day and never want to go back to."  :P

He did say that the parts owned by the feds are quite pretty, but that Wyoming has absolutely "nothing to offer the average person."
That sounds almost exactly as my father described it from his travels through Wyoming and his conclusion was eerily similar. It sounds like you were actually talking to my father.

However, what is poison for one is gravy for another. My brother does say that WY has some excellent skiing and some people don't mind arid, sandy places. Perhaps some people like sagebrush. As long as people know that WY is not lush and green in most places and they don't mind that, I'm not going to criticize their choice. To each his own.
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Michelle

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2003, 11:24:03 am »

My husband also works with several guys who went to WyoTech in Laramie. All these months of researching states and he just got around to telling me about this a couple weeks ago  :-\

Apparently every one of them really disliked it...they complained about there being nothing to do outside of school, having to drive hours and hours to get anywhere, and (no big surprise since these are young men) there being hardly any attractive, available women.

But, as JohnAdams said, to each their own.
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Solitar

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2003, 11:49:00 am »

Maybe if WY wins we could put that hideous picture on the website to help people see what they will be getting themselves into.

Western advocates could find photos of New Hampshire winter scenes that would freeze people's infatuation with NH.  (I've been in New England and on its coast and lived in the Northeast, I know).
 But instead of New Hampshire bashing,

Consider this... (nearly all of which is private land)
View south into the Belle Fourche valley.


or this...  (nearly all of which is private land)
The Belle Fourche River a few kilometers northeast of the tower.


Here is a map of land ownership in the above area around the Belle Fourche River valley and Devils Tower.
Beige is private.  Turquoise is "state trust". Yellow is BLM.
http://www.wygisc.uwyo.edu/24k/own/quad56.html

The map legend is at:
http://www.wygisc.uwyo.edu/24k/own/legend.gif

Click on the link below for a map for all of Wyoming.
http://www.wygisc.uwyo.edu/24k/landown.html
Note that nearly all of eastern Wyoming is private land.
And only one tenth of Wyoming is more land than all of NH or VT or DE.
After you click on the above link and get the entire state on your screen,  note that Goshen, Platte, and Laramie counties in the southeastern corner (the three squares in the bottom right along the Nebraska border) are nearly all private land.
(the tiny red spot in the southeasternmost square is the Air Force Base at Cheyenne).

Obviously the above photos and maps shows that the posts by NH's Wyoming bashers are distorted, misleading hyperbole.  They pick the worst part and highlight it. They ignore the best parts which, if you added up "all" of the quality land held by private owners then Wyoming has more quality private land than New Hampshire has. After the National Forest Land and state land in NH is subtracted, NH has 7,360 sq miles. To rebutt Karl's statement above, just one sixth of Wyoming's 42,782 square miles of non-fed and non-state land needs to be "quality land".  Just the eastern counties of Platte, Goshen and Crook have 7169 square miles.

Thus the following underline text from Karl is a lie.
Quote
They may not own "all" of the quality land, but certainly they own "the vast majority" of it, leaving considerablly less to private owners than is available to private owners in NH.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2003, 02:00:22 pm by Joe, aka, Solitar »
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DadELK68

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2003, 01:45:10 pm »

Joe, I agree that the preceding few posts may not have been in good taste and included selective data and exaggeration, but hardly sink to the level of 'lies'.

Then again, your postings tend to exaggerate in the other direction by selecting the rosiest pictures of WY, avoiding and minimizing the valid concerns of those who question whether the FSP could succeed in WY better than in NH, and emphasizing perceived drawbacks to NH.

Both are at best in poor taste, at worst not completely honest. At least the NH supporters in question are doing it with a sense of humor.

Eric
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LeRuineur6

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2003, 01:46:54 pm »

We never said there was no private land in Eastern Wyoming, just that the majority of Wyoming's land is owned by the government, which is a well-known fact.

That's a nice picture of some private land in a square showing only 1/56th (one fifty-sixth) of Wyoming.   :D

Anyways, calling us liars is uncalled for.

Please try to remain positive.   :)  :)  :)
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DadELK68

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2003, 02:58:48 pm »

It's true that there are places in NH which if photographed mid-winter during a period of severe weather would not look very appealing to those who don't like snow - however, even the best of WY photographed in similar mid-winter wouldn't exactly appeal to those people, either. The point is valid that the best of NH is pretty much in private hands, while what most people would consider the majority of the best of WY is not. If that doesn't matter to you because there is still a decent amount of desirable land available, that's fine.
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Hank

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2003, 04:39:14 pm »

What's wrong with that scene of sagebrush and rabbitbrush? It's great for dirtbiking and riding ATV's. It's great for really long range shooting of 600 yards to 1000 yards. You really ought to try really, really long range targets with honest-to-gosh sniper rifles (oops, precision long range rifles (300 magnums are great but 338 Lapua's and 50 BMG's are better))  ;D :o

Eastern and especially southeastern Wyoming gets less snow than New Hampshire.

Quality land?  You could fit all of New Hampshire's "private quality land" in a small corner of Wyoming.  Ignore the sagebrush if you want, our good parts out-acre your good parts.

Young people are leaving from every town and state for colleges and cities where they can party with more people, go to stadium games, concerts, and have "more to do" (which means more done for them).  They don't want to work for their keep anymore. They want to be taken care of. They want city discos instead of small town dances. They want big city football games instead of hunting rabbits with grampa or their brothers, sisters, or cousins.

I'd bet rural New Hampshire is losing young people to Boston and Massachusetts. I'd bet even southern New Hampshire is losing young people to the big cities and warmer climates further south.
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Dave Mincin

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2003, 05:22:38 pm »

Nothing is wrong with scenes of sagebrush and rabbitbrush!  Fact is it has its own special beauty.  Joe's pictures of WY are lovely too.

WY has some beautiful areas, were the mountains and water is, and were the people live.  Problem is most of the state is sagebrush and rabbitbrush.  

Don't you think there is a reason why the people who live there are all clustered in little areas.  People live were the good land is, that is a fact anywhere.  We have already been told most folks in WY live in towns.  Why?

The open spaces are great, and will remain that way, because they are just not suitable for people!
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DadELK68

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2003, 05:54:44 pm »

Don't forget that I grew up in ID and love the West, including the broad vistas and sagebrush. My posting above was to counter the notion from Joe that comparing the worst place in NH in the worst possible weather to an area of WY which is pretty representative of a great deal of the state during a good part of the year is no more honest than was Karl's picking a photograph of a desolate part of WY and presenting it as representative of the entire state.

My family recently drove through WY, and I enjoyed the trip. My wife and kids absolutely refused to consider the possibility of moving there as we passed through various areas, except for the extreme Western slice of the state.

However, in spite of my personal fondness for the West, I do recognize that almost all of the growth in most of the West is 'urban sprawl' with the vast majority of immigrants moving into houses on tiny lots (less than an acre) on the more desireable/quality land either within or just outside of the limits of the towns/cities. This is why the Western states statistically have more dense 'urbanization' than the Eastern states. The vast open areas are largely uninhabited because they are either extremely unhospitable or are privately owned by large ranch operations and aren't going to be made available for sale to the average buyer any time soon. Argue away, but these are the facts.

Having a lot more acreage (whether privately owned or government-owned) in WY than in NH is irrelevant if you can't buy it or make a living on it, and I recognize that my family's preferences for living conditions are probably much closer to most people's than are mine - although I did rank it 4th on my list I still believe it's highly unlikely that WY will easily attract or support enough Porcupines to lead to what might be considered success for the FSP.

Those relatively few individuals who personally want what Hank describes may move there anyway, and there are probably at least 5,000 of them out there somewhere who might still do it; but that's not going to lead to anything but a state with a smattering of antisocial individualists wanting only to be left alone - activists insofar as they personally aren't free to whatever they darn well please, but not exactly a model to expand 'freedom'. Before anyone accuses me of personal attacks, read Hank's tagline about 'not belonging in civilization' - if he's going to brag about it, I'm willing to acknowledge it. I'm not criticizing his preferences, just showing that his preferences aren't necessarily in line with the goals of the FSP.

BTW, Hank - many parts of WY may get less snow than most of NH, but the wind chill factor and tendency to drift what snow there is can be much more difficult to manage than simply plowing aside the accumulations we get in NH snowstorms. There is a correlation between the amount of moisture (which does include snow, last I heard) and the fact that the only large plant growing in that picture is sagebrush. Would someone like to post a picture of the permanent fixtures on the freeways outside most 'major' towns along I-80, the gates with signs saying 'Road closed, return to _____ (the town you just left)'?

Eric
« Last Edit: September 18, 2003, 05:56:10 pm by DadELK68 »
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johnadams

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Re:Federal Land Ownership Maps!
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2003, 06:38:14 pm »

Joe, I agree that the preceding few posts may not have been in good taste and included selective data and exaggeration, but hardly sink to the level of 'lies'.

Then again, your postings tend to exaggerate in the other direction by selecting the rosiest pictures of WY, avoiding and minimizing the valid concerns of those who question whether the FSP could succeed in WY better than in NH, and emphasizing perceived drawbacks to NH.

Both are at best in poor taste, at worst not completely honest. At least the NH supporters in question are doing it with a sense of humor.

Eric
I think you've hit it about right, DadElk. Some of the WY advocates post the best pictures they have of WY, some of it public lands, to present the most positive picture. Some of the NH advocates then post the worst pictures of private land they come across, to show that the WY advocates are not giving the full picture. The pro-WY folk then accuse the pro-NH folk of lying, because they are showing only a limited picture of WY and making some exaggerated comments about it. But if the limited picture presented by the pro-NH folk is lying, then so is the limited picture presented by the pro-WY folk.

Instead of name-calling I recognize that both sides are propagandizing for their favorite state and against the other. Between the two sides, people should be able to get a pretty accurate picture of both states. Neither WY nor NH is Eden, and neither is Hell. Neither is completely socialist and neither is perfectly libertarian. Different people will be attracted by different things.
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