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Author Topic: Proximity and related issues  (Read 32026 times)

telomerase

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Re:Why being close the DC & NY media/government machine is a good thing
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2003, 09:24:23 pm »

"Yes, closer! Engage those star destroyers at point-blank range!"  ;D
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Kelton

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Re:Why being close the DC & NY media/government machine is a good thing
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2003, 09:59:16 pm »

Ah! ***Thread hijack alert*** Let me hurry and nip this one in the bud, if I can, regarding post #'s 8,9,11,12,13 re: homeschooling.  This map presented at the ATR website ( http://www.atr.org/maps/15.html ) is a little bit old, at least pre-1997.  Idaho has been a leader on the homeschooling front in the West for decades now, but in recent years, many other states have come on board and the lay of the land is much different now than that map.  Since this map was published,  the homeschooling movement has become more polarized, with some states liberalizing homeschooling laws and others (like California) greatly increasing regulation in recent years.

Please don't get down too hard on the case of HSLDA for some minor differences of opinion, they are strong allies in this fight, and will lend us assistance as we try to change the laws in our chosen state.  (though only a few very minor tweaks are needed in the existing level of freedom available in Alaska and Idaho at present in order to be truly free).

Please look at this map and descriptions of the laws for a more recent and updated assessment:
Home School Laws
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matt621

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Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2003, 01:23:22 pm »

We have a good idea of what states people are coming from:

http://www.freestateproject.org/membership.htm

Based on the maps, there is no clear east vs. west trend.


If you look at the gross membership, you are right, it doesn't show any trend one way or the other. So for the purpose of this tread, it's a moot point.

Do anyone know how often those maps are updated?

thanks.

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milas59

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Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2003, 01:48:53 pm »

matt621

Sorry I cant answer your question about frequency of the updatings

But given I am a FL voter, I just had to comment briefly on your now admittedly meaningless thread> An unnamed board member said he thought WY would win because of proximity to CA voters. Another "old" VTer told me he would never vote for DE because it was too hot.

I think as the majority - not the percentage of population JGM - come from southern states -  CA, TX and FL - DE will win because it is hot, flat and populated just like  "home."

Does it have any alligators or rattlesnakes? :D

Peter Baker

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EMOR

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Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2003, 05:23:29 pm »

Delaware would be hard pressed to finish top 8.  ::)
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JonM

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Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2003, 09:20:31 pm »

Delaware would be hard pressed to finish top 8.  ::)


I suppose it's pointless to ask for the source fact that led to such a profound prediction, I mean, even YOU ranked it higher than that.
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Dennis Wilson

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Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2003, 11:14:04 am »

Quote
If you live in New England and you don't end up becoming another Carl Drega, consider yourself fortunate.

Drega may have been demonized by the national media but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the reaction of the New Hampshire government; we certainly could have seen a massive gun control backlash as we did in Colorado after Columbine or California after Santee, but didn't. All in all, even after having a needle shoved through their hearts, the NH state government did not react in the violent way that it could have.

NH does have several flaws that cannot be overlooked; this is to be expected when we live in a nation as imperfect and riddled with ideological bullet holes as the United States. So Drega was killed fighting the government; it's one thing to recognize this and protest it but you people should hear your own rhetoric! You act as if now every liberty-minded individual in New Hampshire will be killed in droves, have their homes destroyed by bulldozers, have their families raped by paramilitary social workers funded by the Fourth Reich, and have their relatives disinterred from their graves and replaced by the corpses of US government officials.

This is a project to create a comparative libertarian utopia, not move to an already-existing one. As I said, the NH government's disgraceful handling of Drega is regretable but should not be used solely as a reason to bump NH all the way down to one's list.


Carl Drega had his life ruined for 20+ years on a day to day basis by NH state and local government employees. And the people who pestered him (except for the individuals that Carl killed) still have the "authority" to do it to any person who owns property or lives in NH. The NH government employees will NEVER be made accountable for what they do, any more than the US government shooters at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Perhaps it is something that needs to be experienced to be appreciated, so indulge me while I explain my own personal experiences and perhaps you may get a small clue about why I could NEVER move to New Hampshire.

In the 1970s, I had my auto stolen from in front of my own house (in Phoenix Arizona). When I reported it stolen, the police said that it was NOT stolen, it was towed away by the city. In order to get my own property back, I had to pay a towing fee and retrieve the auto myself. When I stopped payment on the check, I was summoned into court to explain why. (This episode, I actually won! But it cost me attorney fees, time away from my job, mental anquish that is indescribable and all that time, I was paying the wages of the city employees who were trying to impose their view of the world on me and my private property.)

Since then, I have been served multiple notices about my grass length, the size of my bushes and trees, the "unacceptable" view into my back yard from an alley--a view that existed for 15 years before it suddenly became unacceptable--(that one cost me more than $5,000 to remedy, money that was ear marked for my debt reduction before retirement).

I have also been cited for leaving my trash container near the street for too long after the city monopoly picked up the trash. This, like many other citations, carries a $2,500 per day fine. Try to imagine how long you could survive if you went on vacation for 2 weeks and came back to the accumulated fine!

The most recent citation involved my driveway, (and those of several of my neighbors--I am not just singled out). It seems that the gravel that our driveways have contained for more than 40 years is no longer acceptable. (Never mind that ex post facto laws are forbidden in TWO places in the Constitution!) One of the neighbors received the citation the day AFTER she left on a 1 month vacation! The daily fine was that same $2,500 number that Phoenix seems to favor. She were able to get it waived, but the grovelling required is absurd and obscene.

Each of these incidents (and many more) are similar to what Carl Drega suffered for 20 or more years. NONE of the "laws" that he was cited under have been repealed.

The issue is NOT about how Carl Drega died, it is about how he was COMPELLED--BY NH GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES--TO LIVE!

I stated elsewhere that "New England is a trap for FSP, a sink hole of statism. Once committed to one of those states, the vastly overwhelming population of welfare leeches will suck the life energy out of every productive member of FSP".

Trying to be an agent of change while fending off local authorities will sap the life out of any porcupine. The chances of having your own life energy sapped by bureaucrats is considerably less in Wyoming than anywhere in New England. Such is one of many reasons I will be leaving Arizona and moving to Wyoming.
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JonM

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Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2003, 11:38:17 am »

Carl Drega had his life ruined for 20+ years on a day to day basis by NH state and local government employees. And the people who pestered him (except for the individuals that Carl killed) still have the "authority" to do it to any person who owns property or lives in NH. The NH government employees will NEVER be made accountable for what they do, any more than the US government shooters at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Perhaps it is something that needs to be experienced to be appreciated, so indulge me while I explain my own personal experiences and perhaps you may get a small clue about why I could NEVER move to New Hampshire.

In the 1970s, I had my auto stolen from in front of my own house (in Phoenix Arizona). When I reported it stolen, the police said that it was NOT stolen, it was towed away by the city. In order to get my own property back, I had to pay a towing fee and retrieve the auto myself. When I stopped payment on the check, I was summoned into court to explain why. (This episode, I actually won! But it cost me attorney fees, time away from my job, mental anquish that is indescribable and all that time, I was paying the wages of the city employees who were trying to impose their view of the world on me and my private property.)

Since then, I have been served multiple notices about my grass length, the size of my bushes and trees, the "unacceptable" view into my back yard from an alley--a view that existed for 15 years before it suddenly became unacceptable--(that one cost me more than $5,000 to remedy, money that was ear marked for my debt reduction before retirement).

I have also been cited for leaving my trash container near the street for too long after the city monopoly picked up the trash. This, like many other citations, carries a $2,500 per day fine. Try to imagine how long you could survive if you went on vacation for 2 weeks and came back to the accumulated fine!

The most recent citation involved my driveway, (and those of several of my neighbors--I am not just singled out). It seems that the gravel that our driveways have contained for more than 40 years is no longer acceptable. (Never mind that ex post facto laws are forbidden in TWO places in the Constitution!) One of the neighbors received the citation the day AFTER she left on a 1 month vacation! The daily fine was that same $2,500 number that Phoenix seems to favor. She were able to get it waived, but the grovelling required is absurd and obscene.

Each of these incidents (and many more) are similar to what Carl Drega suffered for 20 or more years. NONE of the "laws" that he was cited under have been repealed.

The issue is NOT about how Carl Drega died, it is about how he was COMPELLED--BY NH GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES--TO LIVE!

I stated elsewhere that "New England is a trap for FSP, a sink hole of statism. Once committed to one of those states, the vastly overwhelming population of welfare leeches will suck the life energy out of every productive member of FSP".

Trying to be an agent of change while fending off local authorities will sap the life out of any porcupine. The chances of having your own life energy sapped by bureaucrats is considerably less in Wyoming than anywhere in New England. Such is one of many reasons I will be leaving Arizona and moving to Wyoming.

It would seem you've been as abused, if not more abused by the government in Phoenix than Carl ever was by his local government.  How many people have you killed because of it?

You'll finding zoning everywhere.  The question is, how hard it is to change it.  I recall reading a report on the 2002 Town Meeting in Peterborough, NH.  In that they voted on quite a few zoning questions on the ballot.  One of which was:

Quote
Question 25 was whether to let John Turner keep cows -- but not chickens or pigs -- on his Hunt Road land for his grandchildren to play with. Voters said yes, 767-231.


Pedantic perhaps, but such is the way of democracy sometimes.
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Aleuicius

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Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2003, 01:25:06 pm »

RobertH's point about proximity is well made and it IS a concern of mine - it's the main reason I opted out of DE - he follows the chain clearly and presents it just as clearly - thank you.

Maijuana was used to make the point, but it could also be guns, drugs, or any other outlawed commodity. There will also be the state vs. state economic issues that the Fed won't care about, but bordering states will.
It's something we will definitely encounter.

BTW - I am sorry to see any thread sidetracked as another NH vs. WY bashing - I see far more similarities than differences between the two. Perhaps that is why both rank so high and generate such fervor?
 
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Dennis Wilson

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Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2003, 01:53:05 pm »

It would seem you've been as abused, if not more abused by the government in Phoenix than Carl ever was by his local government.  How many people have you killed because of it?

You'll finding zoning everywhere.  The question is, how hard it is to change it.  I recall reading a report on the 2002 Town Meeting in Peterborough, NH.  In that they voted on quite a few zoning questions on the ballot.  One of which was:

Quote
Question 25 was whether to let John Turner keep cows -- but not chickens or pigs -- on his Hunt Road land for his grandchildren to play with. Voters said yes, 767-231.


Pedantic perhaps, but such is the way of democracy sometimes.

I haven't killed anyone, and I don't want to. That is why I have sold 11 of my 12 properties and will be leaving not just Phoenix, but Arizona when I sell the last one.

Most of the things for which I have been cited are not even part of zoning regulations! They are misc obscure regulations that were "quietly" passed and left dormant for a few years before enforcement began. Some people have even been jailed for their offenses. No thank you! I'm outta here!  

But I will NOT be moving to any New England state for the reasons I have already stated, and for crap like Question 25 that you quoted. There REALLY ARE places in this country where a man does not have to grovel and beg permission from his neighbors in order to keep or dispose of his own private property. Question 25, and its naming of particular people, is a wonderful illustration of LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT A PRINCIPLE IS, on the part of the the town where it came up for vote.  A Question 25 should never have to be raised. NH is far too backward for me to move there.

You are welcome to waste your life fighting such issues, but you will eventually realize that there are far more welfare statists around you in New England who are raising issues faster than you have time left in your life to fight. I recommend that you leave while you are still able.

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Dave Mincin

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Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2003, 02:27:46 pm »

Your constant reference to New England, leads me to believe you have no true understanding of that area of the country.  As if it was just one single state, and all there act as one robot.  Perhaps you should look at the various state reports and see that New England is not one state, and the states that comprise that area vary much in there beliefs.  Perhaps you believe that all of the east is like Manhattan Island too?

But back to the orginal intent of this thread, proximity.  With the advent of the internet, and mass media, for us to think that we can hideaway in some remote place in my opinion is foolhardy.  Were can we hide, and no one will know about us?

My thought is not to fear the media, or publicity, but to embrace it.  If we believe our ideas are correct then what do we have to fear?  Ok, the bad guys! :D  But if we believe in the people, and we get our message to them, then we can win, we can create a Free State!

Freedom is the right idea!  Our ideas can prevail, but we must use all our skills and learn new ones to get the word of Freedom to the people!

Hiding away just will not get the job done! >:(

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Dennis Wilson

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Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2003, 02:42:54 pm »

Your constant reference to New England, leads me to believe you have no true understanding of that area of the country.  As if it was just one single state, and all there act as one robot.  Perhaps you should look at the various state reports and see that New England is not one state, and the states that comprise that area vary much in there beliefs.  

But back to the orginal intent of this thread, proximity.  

Yes, proximity is the issue of this thread.

The area of ALL of the New England states is just a little over 2/3 the size of Wyoming, yet more than 14 million people live in New England, more that 3 million in just the three FSP candidate states--and most of these millions of people are hostile to libertarian ideas as witness the many reports on the FSP site and the latest Bloomberg Report* on Wealth Friendly states. That report is especially important because it was written by a well respected, independent, outside (of FSP) source.
 
In a serious attempt to make sure I wasn't choosing blindly, I read thru every single one of the 101 reasons why I should choose New Hampshire and when I finished, the fact still remained that less than 1/2 million people in Wyoming--an area 1.47 times larger than ALL of New England--already live in more freedom than any one of the millions of people in New England. Even if they have not explicitly embraced the FSP ideals, those in Wyoming are living most of the ideals every day. Twenty years of libertarian activity in the New England states has not produced anything near the freedom that "non-libertarian" Wyoming residents already enjoy today and have enjoyed for years.
 
There are just far too many wrong minded people living in New England (and even just New Hampshire alone)! The chances of crossing swords with one of those wrong minded people are enormous!

* Search on "Bloomberg" on this site to read the full report which I posted  
 or click here: http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2770

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Dave Mincin

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Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2003, 03:10:22 pm »

Again you slide from the basic topic of this thread proximity.

Ok conceded, the Bloomberg Report seems to indicate that if you have wealth then WY is a good place to go.  Ok you sold 11 of your 12 properties, so I would guess you have wealth, but how much wealth will the rest of the porc's have when they come? What will there prospects be?

As best as I have been able to learn from the research, and various reports most of the folks in WY live clustered together.  Why?  All that land but everyone lives in these little clusters?  What good is all that land, if no one can lives there?  Why does no one live there?

Ok so you can move to WY, buy 10,000 arces and live right comfortably, and free so how does that help us create a Free State?

BTW what does all this have to do with proximity? ???
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DadELK68

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Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2003, 03:17:25 pm »

Dennis -

Here is a slightly revised version of something I recently posted on another thread, which seems appropriate in response to your comments above:

Part of the stated objectives of the FSP is to create a model, to demonstrate what can be done in a free society. Those who are willing to consider larger-populated and/or eastern states are not only thinking in terms of their best interests - there's a strong case to be made for their vision of the future.

Consider population growth and demographic trends. The US population is continuing to grow, and most of that growth is spreading in/from urban/suburban hubs. Rural areas tend to have stable or even declining populations, until the spread from metropolitan areas begins to reach them. When this happens, the rural areas are either overwhelmed or seek to preserve themselves by restricting development.

If we select a rural, remote, 'hideaway' state, what are we going to demonstrate? That we believe freedom can only exist in such an environment - and because eventually this environment will continue to dwindle, logically you're suggesting that the cause of freedom is doomed. In time, growth will overwhelm even these areas, and/or those retreating to the more rural areas will become increasingly isolated from the power base of the larger population, losing all chance of preserving and increasing freedom. If your version of freedom requires isolation, perhaps what you are seeking is not consistent with the ideological freedom which is supposedly the goal of the FSP.

On the other hand, if we select NH or ID, a model can be created which may realistically spread, to be emulated by other states and regions both bordering the Free State and beyond.

In some ways it's almost a choice between retreating to the hills with a seige mentality vs recognizing the potential of what we have to offer to the world. Who is thinking more of themselves and their own interests - the ones who would leave the world behind to seek personal isolation and 'freedom in their lifetime' which will most likely not last beyond their lifetime, or the ones who seek opportunities to actively change the world for the better?

Eric
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JonM

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Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2003, 05:03:16 pm »

It would seem you've been as abused, if not more abused by the government in Phoenix than Carl ever was by his local government.  How many people have you killed because of it?

You'll finding zoning everywhere.  The question is, how hard it is to change it.  I recall reading a report on the 2002 Town Meeting in Peterborough, NH.  In that they voted on quite a few zoning questions on the ballot.  One of which was:

Quote
Question 25 was whether to let John Turner keep cows -- but not chickens or pigs -- on his Hunt Road land for his grandchildren to play with. Voters said yes, 767-231.


Pedantic perhaps, but such is the way of democracy sometimes.

I haven't killed anyone, and I don't want to. That is why I have sold 11 of my 12 properties and will be leaving not just Phoenix, but Arizona when I sell the last one.

Most of the things for which I have been cited are not even part of zoning regulations! They are misc obscure regulations that were "quietly" passed and left dormant for a few years before enforcement began. Some people have even been jailed for their offenses. No thank you! I'm outta here!  

But I will NOT be moving to any New England state for the reasons I have already stated, and for crap like Question 25 that you quoted. There REALLY ARE places in this country where a man does not have to grovel and beg permission from his neighbors in order to keep or dispose of his own private property. Question 25, and its naming of particular people, is a wonderful illustration of LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT A PRINCIPLE IS, on the part of the the town where it came up for vote.  A Question 25 should never have to be raised. NH is far too backward for me to move there.

You are welcome to waste your life fighting such issues, but you will eventually realize that there are far more welfare statists around you in New England who are raising issues faster than you have time left in your life to fight. I recommend that you leave while you are still able.


So if I'm your neighbor, you have no issue with me say, setting up an oil refinery on my land?  Or a Wendy's perhaps, open till 2am for those late night munchies?

Peterborough is located halfway between Keene and Nashua.  The property in question seems just south of nice track of development, but terraserver is only letting me zoom in to 8 meters, and globexplorer doesn't have any detailed shots of that area, so it's hard to tell how close to residential area that lot is.

Now it doesn't matter where you live, if you think you can live in the suburbs in Wyoming and not run into zoning issues, good luck to you.  If you want to buy 50 square miles in the middle of nowhere, chances are not many people will care what you do with that land.
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