Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Proximity and related issues  (Read 32853 times)

Robert H.

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1361
  • Jeffersonian
    • Devolution USA
Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2003, 06:55:10 am »

Just for the record, this thread was not started as a "bash New England" thread.  It was started in recognition of the fact that we are not going to be doing any of this in a vacuum.  We are going to cause a ripple effect to one degree or another with what we're planning here, and I personally believe that we ought to weigh the potential consequences of such in our considerations.

johnadams

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 630
  • Friend of the FSP, Libertarian
Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2003, 01:32:59 pm »

Delaware was zapped too, so technically this has started as a bash-the-East thread, though New England and in particular NH seem to be the main objects of ire.

RobertH (a FreeWyoming supporter and ADVOCATE of remote states) wrote:

"I happen to be an advocate of states that are farther removed from major media outlets and population centers due to a number of factors, including the recent example of how Gephardt supporters were able to easily bus in their comrades from all over New England a pow-wow in New Hampshire

.... For this thread though, I'd like to take somewhat different approach to the issue"

A "different" approach? Seems like more encouragement of the usual battles between WY and NH supporters to me.

RH> ".... when Junior starts road-tripping from the Philly suburbs over to Delaware for pot, or by other state governments when their medical welfare programs start covering abuse problems related to "the ease of accessing marijuana in New Hampshire."


S. Coven added some good sense by correctly pointing out:
"The federal government, over and over again, has overriden any state's action to decriminalize marijuana. I think that it won't happen in one state until it happens nationwide."


FreedomRoad wrote:
"Dennis is from AZ and AZ cannot be selected as the Free State.  He could care less about you moving to AZ and that has nothing to do with the other states."

I am from MA and MA cannot be selected as the Free State and I am not even voting. I also could care less about individuals moving to NH or WY or wherever, you are free to move wherever you like, as far as I am concerned and I would actually like to try to encourage some cooling off between the NH and WY camps. But that doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on which would be the best state(s) for the FSP to start in and it's quite clear that Dennis does too, so it has EVERYTHING to do with the other states. Dennis has even more personal interest in the selection of the state than I do since he is voting and moving and has admitted that he opted out of ALL the New England states.

What I am trying to discourage is threads which begin with a criticism of a particular state or region, as they encourage remarks like Dennis' re: Carl Drega and they become tit-for-tat battles and flame-wars. Let's turn the temperature down a few notches, eh?

FR> "I am unable to follow you here.  Did you know that I-80 and I-90, major East-West interstates pass rightthough Wyoming?"

Yes, Highways pass through most if not all the states, but WY still does not touch any borders or coasts. What is your point? Don't you agree that border states have an advantage in commerce, including marijuana commerce? Some WY supporters (such as RobertH above) have promoted its relative isolation and remoteness as a benefit. Are you now saying that they are wrong? By pointing out WY's relative remoteness I'm not saying that it is absolute or even absolutely bad. There are plusses and minuses to it, just as there are plusses and minuses to states that are not relatively remote.

"Did you know that parts of Wyoming are not isolated and that it actually has a humid part of the state?  Did you know that eastern SD is not only humid but gets a noticable amount of rain?"  

I wasn't thinking of SD when I thought of arid states, and yes, states which are arid overall often have humid parts too. As an example, I have heard that West of the mountains, Washington is very wet and humid (Seattle is famous for this), but the rain falls when it hits the mountains so that the eastern part of the state is very dry. Is this not true? This is also true to a much lesser degree in NH. That doesnt' change the fact, however that WY is a more arid than average state OVERALL and that WY leaders and residents talk about chronic water shortages over the years that have become more of a problem in certain areas as more people have moved in. But my main point is not to balance out your praises of WY by pointing out some of the problems there, but rather to discourage threads which are dedicated to criticism of a state or region, as they have a greater than avg risk of starting flame wars. Threads like these encourage flames like: "If you live in New England and you don't end up becoming another Carl Drega, consider yourself fortunate." I can't believe someone is hitting NE with Carl Drega again after some of the leadership asked people to cool off about that and to remember that the whole world can read these posts. Please, Dennis, delete that remark and then I'll delete my mention of it so we can erase this unpleasantness and get back to more sane discussion.  


Dennis Wilson wrote:
"That proximity issue is one of the major reasons I opted out of the New England states. ....

Living in NH is living in a deep hole with 14 million (population of New England living is a space smaller than Wyoming) welfare receivers and their tax cows throwing dirt on your head (for example: busing people in for a rally as RobertH pointed out).  

Sure, porcupines could do a counter rally, but that takes time away from productive, positive activities. It makes just one more time waster if it has to be done. Lost time here, lost time there, pretty soon it adds up to a lifetime of lost time!

If you live in New England and you don't end up becoming another Carl Drega, consider yourself fortunate."

Every resident of New England is not turning into another Carl Drega. That statement is so outlandish, incendiary and ridiculous that I hesitate to even respond to it, so I ask you to please delete it, Dennis, in the interests of peace and unity among FSP members and friends.
Logged
"men are born equally free and independent" - John Adams
World's Smallest Political Quiz

matt621

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
  • WY=SD>ID>MT>AK>...
Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2003, 06:10:21 pm »

Here is yet another thing I think we need to consider:

Where (from what states) will 20K FSPers come from?

It's my opinion that they would prefer to move to a state that is close to their existing environment. I don't really know whether this favors an east coast or western solution. On the one hand, the western states, by a good margin are more "Free" then the eastern states. So it could be that having a western state as the FSP would be good to gain FSPers from other western states. ie, if wy is picked, we could easily see SD, ND, MT (maybe  ;) ) TX, AZ, NM, et al, move there because it is as least similiar to those western states.

On the other hand, if nh were chosen, then all those FSPers from VT, Maine (maybe ;) ) RI, CT, MA, NY & NJ (Do they have any? ;) ) would move there.

It's my opinion (based losely on living in many of these places) that there are more FSP type people in the west, but the distance is far greater, but then again, westerners are used to that. On ther other hand, I think there are far fewer FSPers on the east coast but the distance and environment are much closer in nh, so the draw could be the same.

I don't have this issue nailed down one way or the other. What do others think of this angle?  Has this been addressed?

Thank you.
Logged
But every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. If there be any among us who [disagree], let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. - Thomas Jefferson 1801

Karl

  • Guest
Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2003, 06:16:50 pm »

We have a good idea of what states people are coming from:

http://www.freestateproject.org/membership.htm

Based on the maps, there is no clear east vs. west trend.
Logged

matt621

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
  • WY=SD>ID>MT>AK>...
Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2003, 06:30:50 pm »

Hey, thanks. That's great! Do you know how often are these maps updated? Also, does the LP party has such maps? I could not find them on their website.

Tanks!
Logged
But every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. If there be any among us who [disagree], let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. - Thomas Jefferson 1801

Dennis Wilson

  • FSP Participant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 37
  • Objectivist & Jeffersonian
    • Dennis Lee Wilson
Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2003, 07:00:59 pm »


Threads like these encourage flames like: "If you live in New England and you don't end up becoming another Carl Drega, consider yourself fortunate." I can't believe someone is hitting NE with Carl Drega again after some of the leadership asked people to cool off about that and to remember that the whole world can read these posts. Please, Dennis, delete that remark and then I'll delete my mention of it so we can erase this unpleasantness and get back to more sane discussion.  

Dennis Wilson wrote:
"That proximity issue is one of the major reasons I opted out of the New England states. ....

Living in NH is living in a deep hole with 14 million (population of New England living is a space smaller than Wyoming) welfare receivers and their tax cows throwing dirt on your head (for example: busing people in for a rally as RobertH pointed out).  

Sure, porcupines could do a counter rally, but that takes time away from productive, positive activities. It makes just one more time waster if it has to be done. Lost time here, lost time there, pretty soon it adds up to a lifetime of lost time!

If you live in New England and you don't end up becoming another Carl Drega, consider yourself fortunate."

Every resident of New England is not turning into another Carl Drega. That statement is so outlandish, incendiary and ridiculous that I hesitate to even respond to it, so I ask you to please delete it, Dennis, in the interests of peace and unity among FSP members and friends.

If Arizona was one of the candidiate states, I would be the most ardent opponent to Arizona.  

I'm not willing to make concessions and compromise what I know to be true, in order to appear more like what I am not. I will not conceal my knowledge for fear of non-acceptance or in a futile attempt to avoid a "flame war" with people who want reality served up to them with sugar and honey.  

I do not think that "Peace and Unity" can be achieved by giving up reason and ignoring reality. I am attempting to pass on some of my 40 years of experience watching Goldwater Arizona turn into John McCain Arizona.

Carl Drega tried to appease and work within the system--in New Hampshire--for 20+ years and where did it get him? The crap that Carl Drega had to endure is not that much different from what has happened in Phoenix in recent years. Ignoring his story, especially since nothing has changed in New Hampshire to prevent it from happening again, is the most grotesque blanking out of reality that I can imagine!

If younger people cannot learn from what I have to say, they should at the very least seriously consider whether their lives will end up being wasted like Carl Drega's life.

No, I will not delete what I have said. Ideas and knowledge are too important for me to ever consider doing that.

To quote your namesake (from Zack Bass' signature line)

"This is a revolution, dammit.  We're going to have to offend SOMEBODY."
      --John Adams - "1776 (the movie)"
« Last Edit: August 22, 2003, 08:00:14 pm by Dennis Wilson »
Logged
Existence exists and Man's mind is capable of knowing it.    Ayn Rand

Wyoming Success: photos of cities, mountains, rivers, and the beach http://members.aol.com/wyomingliberty
Free Wyoming: reports, lists, photos, links, and more http://www.geocities.com/freewyoming

StevenN

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 191
  • Friend of the FSP
Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2003, 07:08:28 pm »

Quote
It's my opinion (based losely on living in many of these places) that there are more FSP type people in the west

OK, even though I disagree, I'll say that there more FSP people in the west for arguments sake. Now, there are maybe 20 million people in the NYC area. Now, if only 0.025% of the population are "FSP types", that's still 50,000 people!
Logged
"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" -- Jebediah Springfield

EMOR

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 351
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2003, 08:12:44 pm »

Likewise with California that would be 95,000 people. It all breaks down to the south, west, and midwest people prefering a rural setting mostly, like Wyoming and the northeast types prefering a more city like atmosphere in NH.
Logged
WY>SD>AK>VT>ND>DE>MT>ID>NH>ME

Robert H.

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1361
  • Jeffersonian
    • Devolution USA
Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2003, 08:16:53 pm »

Delaware was zapped too, so technically this has started as a bash-the-East thread, though New England and in particular NH seem to be the main objects of ire.

"Bash?"  No.  "Zap?"  No.  Discuss?  Yes.  Is discussion no longer possible around here, at least below a certain decibel level?  There are no "objects of ire" under attack (or being "zapped") in this thread, only discussion of states whose ADOCATES have claimed their proximity to large population centers as an advantage for them.

Quote
RobertH (a FreeWyoming supporter and ADVOCATE of remote states) wrote:

"I happen to be an advocate of states that are farther removed from major media outlets and population centers due to a number of factors, including the recent example of how Gephardt supporters were able to easily bus in their comrades from all over New England a pow-wow in New Hampshire

.... For this thread though, I'd like to take somewhat different approach to the issue"

A "different" approach? Seems like more encouragement of the usual battles between WY and NH supporters to me.

The section that you're quoting from is part of a reference I was making to previous debate that has taken place over this issue.  It was not the focus of what I wanted to discuss at the time, thus it was not part of the "different approach" that I was going for.  I think I differentiated that fairly clearly.

Quote
S. Coven added some good sense by correctly pointing out:
"The federal government, over and over again, has overriden any state's action to decriminalize marijuana. I think that it won't happen in one state until it happens nationwide."

The federal government can do what it likes, obviously, but this does not mean that citizens of various states and localities cannot begin working to increase their freedoms now.  Part of this will undoubtedly entail questioning the federal government's authority to interfere in affairs that are rightly none of its concern, and publicizing federal abuses of power when they occur.  As of yet, no state has really challenged federal interference within its borders on such issues, and such a debate/controversy would be very healthy for the future of freedom in this country.

I don't believe you'll find many here who are in favor of waiting to implement reforms until the federal government is willing to go along with it.

Quote
I am from MA and MA cannot be selected as the Free State and I am not even voting. I also could care less about individuals moving to NH or WY or wherever, you are free to move wherever you like, as far as I am concerned and I would actually like to try to encourage some cooling off between the NH and WY camps.

This was not started as an inflammatory thread, and I noticed that other New Hampshire supporters were able to respond to it without making such accusations.

Quote
What I am trying to discourage is threads which begin with a criticism of a particular state or region, as they encourage remarks like Dennis' re: Carl Drega and they become tit-for-tat battles and flame-wars. Let's turn the temperature down a few notches, eh?

Threads criticizing particular states and/or regions are perfectly legitimate if they bring up genuine material for discussion, as opposed to simply starting flame wars.  For those in doubt, I will reiterate that this thread was not started as a "bash-the-east" or Carl Drega discussion.  It has since been steered in that direction, but it was not started that way.

You can make an argument that any thread started here "encourages" flaming and tit-for-tat contests due to the response that we've seen, but this is more of an indication of the leanings of the participants than of the material itself.  Those who want to flame will do so, no matter what the venue.  We have plenty examples of that in this forum.

I don't believe we should ignore the discussion of potentially legitimate issues simply because there is a risk of a flame war starting.  If we did, there would be no discussion taking place here at all anymore.

Sean Coven

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 239
  • I Hate Maryland!
Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2003, 08:36:01 pm »

If a California FSPer would refuse to move New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, or Delaware, because it's farther then Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, or the Dakotas, I don't want to count him among my ranks.

I'm exempting myself from only four states, and all because I believe the FSP will fail there. Geography shouldn't play a role in this matter.

Bruce_Morgan

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 157
  • I'm a Porcupine!
    • DevTech Services
Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2003, 08:41:26 pm »

...prefering a more city like atmosphere in NH.

LOL!  You have obviously never been to New Hampshire!  Ok, ok, so it's not your typical scrubland sagebrush covered rural, but more of your hilly, pastureland rural.  What is so funny is that downtown Concord, the frickin' capitol, is about as citified as the piddlin' little Texas sorghum town I live in now, and a helluva lot friendlier!

Bruce
Logged

matt621

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
  • WY=SD>ID>MT>AK>...
Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2003, 09:06:32 pm »

I really just wish I had the time to take a trip to all of them before the ballot. We are headed up to Wyoming this weekend, because that's the closest to us, but I wish I had time to visit each state before the vote.
Logged
But every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. If there be any among us who [disagree], let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. - Thomas Jefferson 1801

matt621

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
  • WY=SD>ID>MT>AK>...
Re:Something to consider: where are the 20K going to come from?
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2003, 09:08:45 pm »

Quote
It's my opinion (based losely on living in many of these places) that there are more FSP type people in the west

OK, even though I disagree, I'll say that there more FSP people in the west for arguments sake. Now, there are maybe 20 million people in the NYC area. Now, if only 0.025% of the population are "FSP types", that's still 50,000 people!

.025% of 20 million is 5000. And I don't think NYC could find that many FSPers to save it's life.
Logged
But every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. If there be any among us who [disagree], let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. - Thomas Jefferson 1801

Sean Coven

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 239
  • I Hate Maryland!
Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2003, 09:09:46 pm »

Quote
If you live in New England and you don't end up becoming another Carl Drega, consider yourself fortunate.

This would be true IF New England were a single, cohesive political entity, in which case every dissident would likely be rounded up and herded into ideological quarantine pens. But you ignore the fact that New England is divided into states, which range wildly in their politics from conservative Pennsylvania to socialist Vermont to libertarian New Hampshire.

Carl Drega's story is a sad one, a testament to the fact that much work remains to be done in even the most comparatively libertarian of states. However, his story is the exception to Massachusetts' rule, and the fact that he willingly took up arms against what he perceived as government oppression is a similar testament to the beliefs of New Hampshire's citizens at large.

Drega may have been demonized by the national media but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the reaction of the New Hampshire government; we certainly could have seen a massive gun control backlash as we did in Colorado after Columbine or California after Santee, but didn't. All in all, even after having a needle shoved through their hearts, the NH state government did not react in the violent way that it could have.

NH does have several flaws that cannot be overlooked; this is to be expected when we live in a nation as imperfect and riddled with ideological bullet holes as the United States. So Drega was killed fighting the government; it's one thing to recognize this and protest it but you people should hear your own rhetoric! You act as if now every liberty-minded individual in New Hampshire will be killed in droves, have their homes destroyed by bulldozers, have their families raped by paramilitary social workers funded by the Fourth Reich, and have their relatives disinterred from their graves and replaced by the corpses of US government officials.

This is a project to create a comparative libertarian utopia, not move to an already-existing one. As I said, the NH government's disgraceful handling of Drega is regretable but should not be used solely as a reason to bump NH all the way down to one's list.

johnadams

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 630
  • Friend of the FSP, Libertarian
Re:Potential Issues Related to Proximity - A Different Take
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2003, 09:17:26 pm »

I'm not willing to make concessions and compromise what I know to be true,
I didn't ask you to compromise what you know to be true. You do what you want, I can see that appeals to your reason and considerateness fall on deaf ears. Go ahead, flame away if you wish. I wish you would consider saving your ire for the statists, but I cannot control what you do. You are the captain of your own fate.

Quote
I do not think that "Peace and Unity" can be achieved by giving up reason and ignoring reality.
Nor do I. At least we agree on that.  :)

Quote
If younger people cannot learn from what I have to say,
How do you know I'm younger than you?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2003, 09:18:22 pm by johnadams »
Logged
"men are born equally free and independent" - John Adams
World's Smallest Political Quiz
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Up