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Author Topic: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!  (Read 1653 times)

Solar guy

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Depends on your situation, but in some cases as I will show NH is the worst place to live for tax purposes.

Givens:

NH: No income tax, No sales tax, 20 mil homeowner tax (I know parts in NH are higher but it makes the point)
VA: 5.75% income tax and 4.6% sale tax (county dependent), 6 mil homeowner tax
FL: no income tax, 6% sales tax, less then 14 mil effective homeowner tax (valuations are typically 20% or more off the market value in many counties), there is also a $25,000 homestead exemption.

Assumptions  $500,000 home, $2000 consumption a month (food etc. sales taxes apply)/ $24,000 a year.  Social Security is not taxed by any state mentioned here.

Case #1... a retired couple on fixed SS income (average for a couple in the US is $2600 per month or $31,200) and $5000 a year on interest and dividend income (a highly likely possibility for a retired couple)
 
NH: RE tax  $10,000, Income tax 400   as NH has dividend and interest tax   Total $10400
VA: RE tax  $3000, Income tax 287.50, sales tax 1104  Total $ 4391.50
FL: RE tax   $6650, income tax 0, sales tax 1440  Total $8090, this would be less as FL give you a 4% discount on paying your RE taxes early.



Case #2   An investor with an income of $500,000 and passive rental income of $100,000 and Interest and Dividends of $20,000. We will assume all income is generated in the home state.

NH: RE tax $10,000 income tax $5600   Total $15,600
VA: RE tax $3000, income tax $34,500 (about $20,000 before you meet threshold), sales tax $1104  Total $38,604
FL: RE tax $6650, income tax 0, sales tax $1440  Total $8090

As you can see for a typical retired person and for an investor, NH is the most expensive place to live and do business in.

furthermore, I would like to argue that New Hamphire should be ranked lower then Florida in economic freedom.  NH is not a true income tax free state and in fact one of the highest taxes in the nation on passive, interest and dividend income. NH has a lot more business regulation then Florida per the article posted on the home page.  And perhaps one of the most important issues is civil forfeiture law as NH is rated one of the worse in the nation by one article a D-, where FL is slight better with the burden of proof on the government (unlike NH). 

this write up is not to imply that NH is not the best place to live, just to show that in certain economic situations it is not the lowest tax state for some individuals. 

   Thanks 

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JasonPSorens

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2016, 06:55:31 pm »

That seems right, but... in most of NH, a $500,000 home would be a real mansion. That's probably also true of much of northern Florida and non-northern Virginia, granted, but very few, if any, places in NH would be as costly as Miami or Arlington. Also note that Florida has county sales taxes, not included in the calculations above. Plus, the local property tax encourages homeowners to keep a tight leash on local government, so it's actually pretty efficient compared to other places.  For instance, NH is almost always rated #1 in quality of government schools, if that matters to you.

BTW, NH just abolished civil asset forfeiture last year.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Solar guy

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2016, 10:12:20 pm »

Hi Jason,

the numbers I used were for Lee county Florida and Grayson county Virginia.  The 6% in Lee county does include the state and county taxes.  I was just making a general point picking two specific counties but according to wallet Hub, 2016 taxes- Florida had an average real estate tax of 1.1 (I am assuming this is with the $25,000 exemption and early discount) and NH was at 2.1%, the average sales tax (combining state and county tax) in Florida was 7%.   

Being a follower of Austrian economics, The least evil of all taxes is sales tax followed by real estate and lastly income.  Assuming no income tax, I would trade a higher consumption tax (sales) for the lowest possible real estate tax.   Only tax me on what I consume, also have no problem with tolls and higher gasoline tax if its going to roads.

.......If I was going to move to a state for purely tax reasons only it would be Wyoming (its just a high desert to me and I would never consider living there) No state income tax of any kind, an average sales tax of 5.5% (with no taxes on grocery or prescription drugs) and an average real estate tax of .62%

Of course taxes only tell one part of the story of the best place to live free.  But it is one important factor in deciding.

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Luck

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2016, 11:10:51 pm »

Austrian economics is austerity economics, which is mainly for tyranny by the 1%.
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Solar guy

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2016, 07:29:17 am »

"Austrian economics is austerity economics, which is mainly for tyranny by the 1%."


Interesting...... thought this was the free state project, Assumed core Libertarian values with the implied Austrian economics that naturally follows.

Think about this luck.   In a truly free state would austerity even be a possibility? 



....But luck, I will tell you a secret.

The vast majority of the 1% has no power what so ever, let alone the ability to be tyrants, and in fact their economic freedoms are the most restrictive by the government, which negatively effects all economic levels below them.   The top 1% in general are the job producers and this is in inspite of all the government regulations, taxes and the unfair competitive advantages the government gives to the giant corporations.  This comes in the form of subsides, tax advantages, laws and regulations to restrict competition.  It's not the 1% that gets these government advantages its more like the .001%. yes the .001% owns the government and passes laws to give them tax payers money, subsides and regulations to give themselves a competitive edge and restrict market entry.  In reality you should help and support the bulk of the 1%,  these are the folks that will increase the living standard of all.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2016, 04:15:15 pm »

I think there's an Austrian case for the property tax above the sales tax, actually. The sales tax creates lots of distortions, though it's not as bad for growth as the income tax. It's not a value-added tax, so it distorts the structure of production (businesses have to pay on their inputs). In the context of ample choice of local government, by contrast, the property tax can come close to a user fee. Towns that offer more services charge higher property taxes. Also, the fact that the property tax comes once a year and must be paid by the homeowner in a single lump sum motivates homeowners to hold local government accountable and keep taxes in check.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 04:16:53 pm by JasonPSorens »
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Solar guy

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2016, 06:31:05 am »

That is a good point, Of course Austrians believe in as little taxes as possible but an argument can be made which they see as the best or better tax.  The view I take from from their writings is that the sales tax is less evil but of course I totally understand with your argument and,  it is totally true but I think there is a component for freedom of choice here that the sales tax is more suited then the property tax.    This is from the mises institute:  thus these are not my words.

"the property tax, the mainstay of local government as the income tax is at the federal level, is now generally acknowledged to have a devastating effect on the nation's housing. The property tax discourages improvements and investments in housing, has driven countless Americans out of their homes, and has led to spiraling tax abandonments in, for example, New York City, with a resulting deterioration of blighted slum housing."

"A  new,  single  tax  rate  called  the  Fair  Tax  will  be  solely  based  on  taxing consumption [www.fairtax.org]. This new tax allows consumers to “decide when and  if  they  pay  taxes”  (Ose).  One  of  its  most  distinctive  features  is  the  prebate paid to all households under the poverty line. This prebate will cover tax expenses charged  on  items  that  meet  basic  needs.  The  Fair  Tax  eliminates  “the  income, payroll, corporate,  gift,  estate,  capital  gains,  self-employment  and  alternative minimum taxes... increases take-home pay by at least 25.3%” (Ose)
.  An extreme change in a tax system brings on many supporters and opponents alike who view the alteration as either progressive or regressive on economic growth and income distribution."   
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Luck

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 10:16:50 am »

I'm somewhat of a "Left" libertarian, or "agorist" etc. It's great if "Right" libertarians oppose austerity, but general conservatives or neoliberals/neocons obviously favor it, as it's being forced on many countries by the IMF etc. I oppose taxes as much as anyone.

I don't see how you regard the 1% as powerless or good guys. They own western governments via big transnational corporations and via corporate political campaign contributions. They decide who gets elected to higher offices; we don't. And they pick officials who will likely do them the most good financially and power-wise. They control the CIA, NATO and all that corruption. They own the mass media and thus control public opinion to a great extent. There is no real government regulation except of their competitors, i.e. smaller businesses etc.

A few years ago I posted a thread about many nations including ours being Pathocracies, meaning Rule by Psychopaths. The article I quoted explained that psychopaths are good at pretending to be normal people and they tend to recognize each other and develop into "Good ole boys" networks. Cream rises to the top, but so does scum, and the scum often destroys the cream.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 10:28:01 am by Luck »
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Solar guy

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 12:36:08 pm »

....LUCK

  Why all the labels?

You clearly have a complete misunderstanding of the top 1%, I guess thats part of the labeling thing.  I am well within the top 1%, I also have friends and family members that are also in that group, as I said in my previous post, "The vast majority of the 1% has no power what so ever, let alone the ability to be tyrants, and in fact their economic freedoms are the most restrictive by the government"

NO......   I, my family and friends to not "own western governments", "give corporate political contributions" (Did give a personal political contribution to to libertarian party), "decide who gets elected" (if that was the case Ron Paul would be President), "own the mass media" and definitely don't control "public opinion".  But what we to do is employ many people with a good income to serve a vital function in the community.

.....and as far as "pretending to be normal people".....just another label, what is normal? 
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Luck

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2016, 01:49:39 pm »

Labels make communication more efficient in general. I'm a libertarian against taxes, war and authoritarianism, but I'm "left" regarding the FIRE sector etc. One percent isn't meant to be a precise statement. It's a convenient way to say the super-rich. It's probably the top one percent or less of the one percent. That would be about .01% or less.

Here's what Michael Hudson said at Guns and Butter, April 5, 2016.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/06/michael-hudson-the-slow-crash.html
    Most people think of the economy as producing goods and services and paying labor to buy what it produces. But a growing part of the economy in every country has been the Finance, Insurance and Real Estate (FIRE) sector, which comprises the rent and interest paid to the economy’s balance sheet of assets by debtors and rent payers. More and more money is being extracted from the production and consumption economy to pay the FIRE sector. That’s what causes debt deflation and shrinks markets. If you pay the banks, you have less to spend on goods and services.

You weren't for the bank bailouts, were you?

By the way, it's the psychopaths who attain positions of power who I said pretend to be normal people. I wasn't talking about most of the upper class at all, just the power grabbers who tend to become absolute power seekers. I have no problem with people who work and earn big money honestly.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 01:57:03 pm by Luck »
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Solar guy

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2016, 05:29:24 pm »

"You weren't for the bank bailouts, were you?"

Of course not, Truth be said I live in a very democrat area, I myself have never voted for a republican (I don't count Ron Paul as a Republican), the last main stream candidate I voted for was Bill Clinton.  I know very few Republicans.  I also know, no other Libertarian (other then my wife).  However, all my family members and most of my friends  (Dems) were against the bailouts,   I actually can't think of one that was in favor.  Many also agree with many libertarian ideas, After much conflict (and I mean verbal fights), I was even able to convert all of them into Gun rights, Wow,  Dems against gun control,  Using stats and studies, there is no correlation between guns and violence but gun violence has shown to be directly related to economic status.  We even take them shooting once in a while.  Of course there are somethings they will never agree too, like getting rid of the Minimal wage.  But since Hillary is really disliked by just about everyone, a few will even vote for Gary Johnson, others are not going to vote at all.   

Changing the topic a little, I was excited to hear of a libertarian group in the US.   The only place that has similar ideas in my view is Switzerland (Which I see as a country full of Libertarians (not a political party there), which my wife and I felt right at home.  Yes, English is the 2nd language and the vast majority of the population speaks it. 

Too my knowledge its the only country in the world that is a direct democracy, with a relatively free economy.

Any citizen can introduce a bill that can get on the national ballet for a vote, all that is needed is a petition with 50,000 signatures
If the government wants to buy Fighter Jets, this is a nation wide vote, and yes the people voted against it.
Last nation to go off the gold standard, there was a vote last year to go back but it failed I thing by about 10% but Gold is still in favor, you can get it at any bank and even at major train stations.    Anyway, you get the point, I can go on for hours about Switzerland, and If we could, we would move there without a 2nd thought. 




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JasonPSorens

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2016, 06:06:37 pm »

I'd say rent control has been a much more important factor than property taxes in the decline of New York City's rental stock. Note that Milton Friedman said that a land value tax would be the ideal tax - now, a property tax does distort because it covers improvements to the land, but it incorporates a land value tax.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Luck

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Re: Taxes (NH vs. VA. and FL.) and the winner is!.....you will be surprised!
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2016, 11:09:40 am »

Solar Guy, I read lately that Switzerland liberally allows gun ownership, but not ammo ownership. I think people have to go to the government to buy ammo. Seems like they have to give good reasons for buying it too.

Are you considering moving to NH? Or is it not financially worthwhile? If not considering that, what about starting a Free Town? I've posted info about CELDF.org which helps communities pass helpful ordinances for freedom & security. It's been helping communities in NH, PA, OH, CO etc.

A gold-backed currency does not seem to be ideal. If gold were hoarded by anyone, the gold supply would dwindle and there'd no longer be gold-backed currency. I.e., no more gold would be available to anyone in exchange for money, so the currency would end up being fiat anyway. And fiat money doesn't seem to be a problem, as Michael Hudson and others explain. The U.S. colonies prospered with colonial scrip before the British outlawed it for the British bankers. I read that some of the colonies backed their scrip with land, instead of gold etc.
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