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[wes237]

I believe that state income taxes would be the most difficult to change as they are "across the board" for all residents of the state. State lawmakers are in control. With sales and property taxes, the local community governments have some say in adding or reducing the amounts according to their specific needs.

There is a certain pride in the residents of states that have no income tax.  They feel a bit more free in being one of the  minority states, and  they can better control the politicians at the local level when it comes to sales taxes and property appraisals.

[Solitar]

To Diana and others to whom it may also apply,

Or am I really clueless about this stuff and not understanding anything I read here? (And I readily admit I don't understand everything, especially some of Joe's stuff.)

Please write of what that I wrote that you do not understand. I will endeavor to think on how to write and explain better. Please understand that it was all beyond my understanding at one time and most of it still is. Maybe somebody else on this forum can help us both.

Sincerely

P.S. Maybe this warrants another thread, but on what I certainly have little clue.
Maybe somebody can start a
Frequently asked questions (on pragmatic politics, not religion, or philosophy!)
Yet there are lots of threads with just such questions.
Where to start?

[thewaka]

Please write of what that I wrote that you do not understand.

Joe, I don't know what to make of all the information you posted about the state legislatures (most obvious recent example). You write clearly, it is the information I sometimes don't understand the meaning or significance of.

Diana

[thewaka]

The campaigns we will be running will depend on volunteers much more than the campaigns of our opposition.

Ted, do you have any facts to verify this? Are you assuming in all of your posts that we are running candidates under the LP? We first need to support people who are already in office who at least partly support our views. We will be there 4-6 years before putting forth our own candidates. By then, some reform should have taken place and we will have support for our ideas. And if we run as Dems or Reps, campaign funds are much easier to get.

2.  In addition to state wide candidates, we will also be doing a lot of issue stuff, both for refrendums, and also for voter education.  This will take place across the state.

Yes, it will take place across the state and FSPers will be across the state. No one person will *have* to travel the entire state. And statewide races are several election cycles away from the 5th year after the 20,000 are reached. Again, time to become known and "mainstream."

My experience is that anything over 20-30 miles will be enough to keep at least some of them home.

But remember these 20,000 volunteers traveled well over that for the possibility of freedom. How many will really balk at driving 50-60 miles (one hour or so)? Or even more?

Diana

[Solitar]

Diana wrote:

Joe, I don't know what to make of all the information you posted about the state legislatures (most obvious recent example). You write clearly, it is the information I sometimes don't understand the meaning or significance of.

I've answered that, or tried to, over on the legislature analysis thread.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5&action=display&threadid=1002&start=15

[TedApelt]

The campaigns we will be running will depend on volunteers much more than the campaigns of our opposition.

Ted, do you have any facts to verify this? Are you assuming in all of your posts that we are running candidates under the LP? We first need to support people who are already in office who at least partly support our views. We will be there 4-6 years before putting forth our own candidates. By then, some reform should have taken place and we will have support for our ideas. And if we run as Dems or Reps, campaign funds are much easier to get.

If this wasn't true, we would be considering all the states, not just the low population ones.  We want low population ones because we are so short of money and people.

No one person will *have* to travel the entire state.

Many of us will be going from one city to another frequently.  There will always be state fairs, candidate debates, "meet the candidate" picnics, air shows, Octoberfests, and many other things that will be happening where we will want as many volunteers as possible to come and help out.  Most of us will not be living in whatever city these events are in whenever one occurs.

For example, if we chose Montana, I would be living in Billings.  Great Falls is a sizeable place, and would be having things happening there that I would be driving to.  Same with Helena, and some other places.  And, of course, people from those cities would be coming to Billings when something is happening there.

But remember these 20,000 volunteers traveled well over that for the possibility of freedom. How many will really balk at driving 50-60 miles (one hour or so)? Or even more?

Diana

1.  Once we get the 20K to commit to the move, whether or not we really will get that many to actually do it remains to be seen.  After reading many of the posts, I am very worried about the level of commitment FSP people really have.  It is not so much what they are saying as what they are NOT saying.  I am not hearing very many "war stories" of campaigns and voter education efforts.  I have not yet had anyone tell me that they too went to the Leadership Institute.  (Am I the only one?  If you went there, please speak up!)  I haven't even heard from anyone who went to the Campaigns & Elections training (as I have) or any other such school.  (If you went to one PLEASE POST ABOUT IT!)  Heck, I haven't heard anybody but Joe talk about going to city council meetings!  (I haven't either, but I will.  Thanks, Joe!)  And I am supposed to believe that the same people who won't do anything where they are now will move to a state and start doing things there?  I find this very hard to believe.

2.  Just because we CAN and WILL do something doesn't mean that it is a good idea.  Once again, every hour spent driving is an hour not spent doing something else.  Every dollar spent on gasoline, tires, and car repairs is a dollar not spent on brochures and newspaper ads.

I know what I want my time and money going to.

[Zxcv]

I helped a conservative Democrat (!) run for state representative (attended campaign school with her on that one). I helped a conservative Republican run for Congress, twice. I've helped LP candidates run for Governor and other offices. I did substantial work on these campaigns, not just sticking stamps on letters.

I've been a "citizens' rep" on the Metro Technical Advisory Committee (our regional government), and worked in various "citizen participation organizations" for a while. I've testified several times in county commission meetings. I've been a founder and on the board of a campagin committee to run a particular slate of candidates for the county commission, partly successfully.

I've been treasurer of the state LP for a couple of years.

I was co-founder of the local franchise of a group that lobbied Congress to end the nuclear arms race.

I have written (I think) 4 arguments in opposition to statist ballot measures for the state voter's pamphlet, at $500 a whack (out of my pocket).

I've written literally hundreds of letters to the editor, and got a decent percentage of them published.

That enough for ya, Ted?  

[varrin]

If you went there, please speak up!

I've been to a LI campaign school...  I never mentioned it before, but I guess it's important to *someone*.  ;-)

V-

[MLiq]

wes237 - Delaware may have income tax but it has no sales tax or property tax.

Also, the original post said Delaware was commutable to 2 major cities but I only know of Philly, am I missing something here? (I don't think so).

[wes237]

MLiq

yeah ... so ... and I said I am ok with sales and property taxes and not ok with state income taxes. One has some individual say in some taxes but not in taxes taken from your paycheck before the paycheck is given to you.

[MLiq]

I agree with you in that sales tax should be the only thing.  Of course property taxes are pretty much just as bad as income being unavoidable unless you rent property.  

Problem is that having no sales tax is what enables Delaware to get a lot of business from NJ & PA & MD people, so it benefits residents of the state maybe.  I figure if you live in a state with no sales tax you are probably going to save enough for a few percentage points of your income to be worth it, coupled with the no property tax which is pretty expensive here in FL along with 7% sales.  Of course the DE tax system unfairly taxes poor less than rich but not so much that it matters a whole lot.  The rich also would probably buy more things and spend more on property tax.

[Zxcv]

MLiq, are you sure about Delaware not having a property tax? I thought the only states that had a single tax (out of the three: income, sales and property) were NH and Alaska (and the latter gets a pile of oil money so it's understandable). Is there some way to document this? I looked but couldn't find it.

I believe that state income taxes would be the most difficult to change as they are "across the board" for all residents of the state. State lawmakers are in control.

Actually, when I said income tax was easy to knock down, I was thinking of the use of the initiative. That kind of initiative would be simple to write and bullet-proof in terms of court challenges, and probably would be popular. Some of our states don't have the initiative, though.

Being "across the board" is actually an advantage, with the initiative. The more people not subject to a tax, the harder it is to reduce it because these don't have any personal incentive (and actually have some disincentives if they are on welfare, etc.)

[Eddie_Bradford]

wes237 - Delaware may have income tax but it has no sales tax or property tax.

Also, the original post said Delaware was commutable to 2 major cities but I only know of Philly, am I missing something here? (I don't think so).

The other one I was talking about was Baltimore but I went back and checked out Yahoo maps and it's probably too far to be very practicle.  Although some people commute this far I agree that it is probably not a good option for most people.  Yahoo maps says it take 1 hour and 6 mins to drive from the edge of DE to the center of Baltimore.  If you could travel the speed limit or faster then it would probably be more like 50 mins but still that is quite far.  Since I don't know what traffic is like on I-95 and it's probably pretty bad this would be a very hard commute.  Although it might not be too bad if you have a job in NE Baltimore area.

I still think DE is a great option the population is so low and there are jobs within reach for everyone.  One could argue that the poor people would move out when our influx drives up the price of property.  But I agree native voting sentiments are the worst aspect of DE and the campaignes are expensive relatively speaking.  But still the voting population is so small that we could be a much bigger influence.  I went back and looked but to no avail....  as I recall less than 20,000 votes could elect the mayor of Wilmington to biggest city in DE.  Anyway it's a good choice and great job oportunities.

-Eddie

[freedomroad]

I still think DE is a great option the population is so low and there are jobs within reach for everyone.  One could argue that the poor people would move out when our influx drives up the price of property.  But I agree native voting sentiments are the worst aspect of DE and the campaignes are expensive relatively speaking.  But still the voting population is so small that we could be a much bigger influence.  I went back and looked but to no avail....  as I recall less than 20,000 votes could elect the mayor of Wilmington to biggest city in DE.  Anyway it's a good choice and great job oportunities.

-Eddie

To clean this up, everywhere has a property tax.  AL has the lowest property taxes in the country.  DE does not even have low property taxes.  As far as I know, NH is the only state with a state property tax.  NH also has local property taxes.  DE has high imcome taxes and a high cost of living to go along with its high income.  Sales taxes are better than income taxes but because DE takes advantage of its no sales tax the state is stuck that way.  Certainly, sales taxes are much more fair than income taxes but it is too late in DE.  All we can do is try to lower the income tax is DE.  This will always be a poor spot for DE.  It would look kind of silly trying to call DE a libertarian/ small government state when it has an income tax.  Also, not many FSP members will move into Wilmington.  Wilmington is an expensive and dangerous city.  This is the worst city in DE.

The whole point of this thread is bad, also.  It does not matter what the vote was in 1994.  It matters what the highest recent vote is.  We have to think about potential voters.  Certainly, even more potential voters will start voting in DE, once we move there.  

[varrin]

If we go to Deleware, I'll probably be moving to Wilmington.  It's on the border with PA and I'd commute out of Philly.  I *like* living in suburban areas, so I'm sure Wilmington would be the obvious choice given the cirumstances.

And, as previously pointed out, DE is leagues ahead of ID in terms of population.  

V-