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Author Topic: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?  (Read 16271 times)

FTL_Ian

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2014, 09:53:44 pm »

By all means, if you have to, you are going to offend statists.  But you should be offended them on their political views.  Not on their non-political culture and customs. 

Some of the activism here is about challenging dumb, antiquated, biased culture and customs. 

Yes, that makes people angry.  That's their problem.   ::)
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2014, 09:58:07 pm »

You seem confused; this is the FSP forum, not the Freekeene forum or the FTL forum. You should probably direct your complaints to the people actually involved in whatever activities you find objectionable.

They've received quite a lot of criticism for their tactics and lack of concern for public relations from other free-staters, myself included. I've tried to make sure it was constructive and tactful. Mark himself, Ian's closest cohort, has tried. Some have been far less tactful in their criticism than us. Denis Goddard comes to mind. We've all mostly exhausted ourselves trying to convince them to change. You're welcome to try. They are unresponsive to criticism whether it's tactful and constructive or otherwise. Scream at them 'til you're hoarse if you want. You'll eventually get exhausted as well and they will continue to do activism the way they think is effective.


Aw, please, Dale.  Activists here have definitely changed tactics after receiving feedback.  Obviously not all feedback is valuable though.  For me, feedback is increasingly less valuable the more disconnected the critic is from me.

For instance, feedback from Dale is more valuable than feedback from some anonymous forum troll.  Feedback from an activist like Dave Ridley, who has activist cred, is more valuable than feedback from some newbie with zero hours logged in the streets.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2014, 10:01:48 pm »

I've criticized FK from time to time, and received some flak in return for it. But generally, it's just not worth the energy to try to tear other activists down and create drama. When you get to NH, you are probably best served just trying to be a good neighbor and make a positive case for the kinds of things that you are doing. It is easy to ignore what happens in Keene if you try. Don't let a tiny minority of Free Staters define you. The best answer to Free Keene is to out-compete them.

This is the best comment on the thread.  Thanks Jason.

It's a real shame no one can out-compete Free Keene for blog coverage of the liberty movement.  Looks like Shire Liberty News is finally giving us a run for our money - glad to see it.   
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Argentum

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2014, 05:39:07 pm »

 There's no single age at which all individuals gain the maturity to consent to sex.  
True. But there are plenty of ages I, and any other normal person, can name where all individuals of that age cannot consent.


Besides, supporting certain laws in our current State-dominated society does not make one any less libertarian.  The State isn't going anywhere too soon.  I support laws against murder.  The violators of these laws are apprehended by police paid for with tax-dollars,  prosecuted by people paid for with  tax-dollars in courts presided over and staffed by people paid for with tax-dollars. If found guilty, they are send to prisons paid for with tax dollars guarded by people  paid for with tax dollars.
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Argentum

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2014, 05:41:48 pm »

By all means, if you have to, you are going to offend statists.  But you should be offended them on their political views.  Not on their non-political culture and customs. 

Some of the activism here is about challenging dumb, antiquated, biased culture and customs. 

Yes, that makes people angry.  That's their problem.   ::)
That's fine.  But don't, and I'm not saying you have, characterize it as libertarian activism.  Libertarianism is not about criticizing and challenging purely social customs.
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Argentum

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2014, 05:43:28 pm »

Hey Argentum,

I see you ignored Maineshark's thoughtful post about age of consent.

Rather than just vaguely accusing me of having some sort of outrageous view, why don't you just get specific?



Was the video posted by the Stop Free Keene people (who are pretty statist) a mischaracterization of your position? Was it unfairly edited?
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Argentum

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2014, 05:46:10 pm »

I've criticized FK from time to time, and received some flak in return for it. But generally, it's just not worth the energy to try to tear other activists down and create drama. When you get to NH, you are probably best served just trying to be a good neighbor and make a positive case for the kinds of things that you are doing. It is easy to ignore what happens in Keene if you try. Don't let a tiny minority of Free Staters define you. The best answer to Free Keene is to out-compete them.

I think that should be emphasised.  The Free Keene people are only a handful the liberty activists in New Hampshire.

Where then are they getting their financial support?  The fact that at least some of them can make a living out of being an activist tells me that they at least have the tacit support of a good chunk of the NH liberty community.
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Argentum

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2014, 05:51:27 pm »

I have made this same point a few times.

Pro government people in NH do use the extreme examples as a way to attack entire groups.  It doesn't matter that there are very good people involved in the FSP who have accomplished quite a bit, the pro government groups will bring up the most extreme cases and try to lump anyone even remotely associated with the group with those extremes.

This is a common tactic and it's very frustrating that it happens. Stressing about this will drive you nuts though. Trying to control everyone else's activism is exhausting and ultimately futile. I think we just have to try to do a better job of expressing our own messages and fight misleading speech with better speech instead of trying to stop all the behavior of the attention-getting types.

As I said, many of us tried for quite a while. It didn't work. Accept they're going to do what they're going to do and just do our best on our own plans.


An underlying theme to my post was that I was seriously considering making the move.  But if I'm going to have to spend effort and energy trying to distance myself from FK, then it's probably not worth it.

In the interest of full disclosure.  I am not an activist. It would be pointless where I live.  But I feel I could be a decent activist if I were in the right place.

And I also want to thank everyone for their thoughtful and respectful replies to my posts.
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dalebert

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2014, 08:13:06 pm »

So that's your swan song? You've made up your mind and you're leaving? Because you're, at best, very high maintenance, but more likely just a troll. I don't think anyone here's going to beg you to stick around if that's what you're hoping for.

Argentum

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2014, 01:05:26 am »

So that's your swan song? You've made up your mind and you're leaving? Because you're, at best, very high maintenance, but more likely just a troll. I don't think anyone here's going to beg you to stick around if that's what you're hoping for.

This is the prospective participants sub-forum, yes?  At one time,I was a serious "prospective participant".  I just wanted to voice my reasons why I am now an improbable "prospective participant".  It's great for Free Staters to point out new signers and new movers.  But that is what is seen. What is not seen is all of the people who have elected not to join for whatever reason. 

I don't understand the "high maintenance" comment.  If I did choose to move, I would just do my own thing and work with like-minded people.  I also don't understand the troll comment.  Is it not legitimate to ask the question I asked in this forum?  Have I been disrespectful or inflammatory?
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freedomroad

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2014, 04:53:36 am »

Is it not legitimate to ask the question I asked in this forum?  Have I been disrespectful or inflammatory?

It is a legitimate question but not an accurate question. Free staters have been highly critical of Ian Freeman, as has been pointed out. Ian Bernard, I have no idea who that is. If you are trying to make fun of Ian Freeman by calling him Ian Bernard, that might not be a legitimate question. That is just trolling him and makes you look bad.
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dalebert

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2014, 08:36:44 am »

I don't understand the "high maintenance" comment.  If I did choose to move, I would just do my own thing and work with like-minded people.  I also don't understand the troll comment.  Is it not legitimate to ask the question I asked in this forum?  Have I been disrespectful or inflammatory?

It was fine to ask it. It was answered and it is now on the record. Now you're just harping on something that is out of our control, as we explained.  Continuing to harp on it is completely unhelpful and therefore trollish.



So if you're sure you don't want to be a mover, why are you wasting your time and ours harping on things that we can't control, i.e. other people? That sure sounds like a troll. At the very least, if your beef is with the Free Keene folks, go troll THEM. Their blog is very active with comments of people complaining about them and they actually take time to respond, I think. I don't go there often, but that seems to be the case.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 08:38:22 am by dalebert »
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Auspicious Aspect

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2014, 08:54:07 am »

So that's your swan song? You've made up your mind and you're leaving? Because you're, at best, very high maintenance, but more likely just a troll. I don't think anyone here's going to beg you to stick around if that's what you're hoping for.

This is the prospective participants sub-forum, yes?  At one time,I was a serious "prospective participant".  I just wanted to voice my reasons why I am now an improbable "prospective participant".  It's great for Free Staters to point out new signers and new movers.  But that is what is seen. What is not seen is all of the people who have elected not to join for whatever reason. 

I don't understand the "high maintenance" comment.  If I did choose to move, I would just do my own thing and work with like-minded people.  I also don't understand the troll comment.  Is it not legitimate to ask the question I asked in this forum?  Have I been disrespectful or inflammatory?

I am going to repeat this: You have never been a serious FSP prospect. Looking back at your very early posts in 2009, you then spoke supportively of the Keene topless activism, which you now condemn. But more significantly, you also started right in on Ian, personally. That's your only reason for being here. Not to ask legitimate questions concerning prospective participation, just to harass Ian, for whatever strange reasons that motivate you.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2014, 06:59:58 pm »

Hey Argentum,

I see you ignored Maineshark's thoughtful post about age of consent.

Rather than just vaguely accusing me of having some sort of outrageous view, why don't you just get specific?



Was the video posted by the Stop Free Keene people (who are pretty statist) a mischaracterization of your position? Was it unfairly edited?

What was your understanding of my position?
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MaineShark

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2014, 07:26:11 pm »

There's no single age at which all individuals gain the maturity to consent to sex.
True. But there are plenty of ages I, and any other normal person, can name where all individuals of that age cannot consent.

Indeed.  And at those ages, there would be zero problem convincing a judge/jury/arbitrator/whatever that consent was impossible.  As you just said, no normal person could possibly disagree.  Hence, no number is needed.

Besides, supporting certain laws in our current State-dominated society does not make one any less libertarian.  The State isn't going anywhere too soon.  I support laws against murder.  The violators of these laws are apprehended by police paid for with tax-dollars,  prosecuted by people paid for with  tax-dollars in courts presided over and staffed by people paid for with tax-dollars. If found guilty, they are send to prisons paid for with tax dollars guarded by people  paid for with tax dollars.

That has nothing to do with the discussion.  You said:
In particular, their leader, Ian Bernard, has some objectionable, and non-libertarian, views about the age of consent.

Even if we were to accept the argument that it's okay for a libertarian to believe that current age of consent laws are acceptable within the context of the present, imperfect society, that does not support the claim that someone who speaks out against that nonsense is un-libertarian.  Arguing that there is some technicality under which your own views are tolerable does not equate with proving that someone who actually holds the correct views should be condemned.

And, of course, the argument that the current laws is tolerable, is not sensible.  As I proved, the set ages could be stricken and replaced by simply making maturity an element of the crime, entirely within the current system.  Therefore, no libertarian can support the current laws as some sort of "well, it's the best we can manage within the context of this Statist society," because it's not even close to the best that can be managed.

Anyway, you have made a very serious charge against Ian, and you have entirely failed to support that charge.
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