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Author Topic: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?  (Read 16157 times)

dalebert

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2014, 04:11:58 pm »

There wasn't actually any nudity, as someone pointed out. There was toplessness which is not even nudity by NH law. In fact, a policeman learned about this that day. It was awkward. It's also not about nudity so much as about treating genders the same with all the same rights.

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2014, 12:02:52 am »

Are the aforementioned people and organizations not associated with the FSP?  If you read my original post, my objections aren't so much with FK or FTL, but with the lack of criticism of them by other libertarians.  I'm not in NH so I don't have the pulse of the liberty movement there.  I know there are non-libertarians who hate and are disgusted by FK.  But the Ridley video I posted was the only major criticism I've seen.  As Dave said in the video, they are so strident, so shrill. I would add self-righteous and condescending.

I think the most famous person associated with toplessness in Keene is associated with the FSP, but not Free Keene. She has never live in Keene. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th most famous women associated with toplessness in Keene are not associated with the FSP or Free Keene.
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Auspicious Aspect

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2014, 04:49:04 am »

The main reason I can never join the FSP has to do with FK.  And it's not really about what the Free Keeners do.  It's true that I find their childish and sometimes crude and offense antics like chalking, public nudity, pretending to drink alcohol at town meetings, etc. to be counterproductive.  My main objection is the lack of criticism and even outright denunciation by other members of the NH liberty community.  Maybe it's  because I don't live in NH, but the only major criticism I've seen is by Dave Ridley in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgqn3BXWHQ&list=UUE_3GcvLERTeS9XFZPtRsIA.  In particular, their leader, Ian Bernard, has some objectionable, and non-libertarian, views about the age of consent.  But I see and hear nothing but tolerance from other libertarians.  It reminds me of black political movements from the past.  It seems like solidarity trumps basic morals.  Malcolm X was a great exception to this.  Because he was an honest man, he called out his own mentor, Elijah Muhammad, for immoral behavior.  If FTL is going to be the "face" of the NH liberty movement, then it is doomed to failure.

You seem confused; this is the FSP forum, not the Freekeene forum or the FTL forum. You should probably direct your complaints to the people actually involved in whatever activities you find objectionable.

Are the aforementioned people and organizations not associated with the FSP?  If you read my original post, my objections aren't so much with FK or FTL, but with the lack of criticism of them by other libertarians.  I'm not in NH so I don't have the pulse of the liberty movement there.  I know there are non-libertarians who hate and are disgusted by FK.  But the Ridley video I posted was the only major criticism I've seen.  As Dave said in the video, they are so strident, so shrill. I would add self-righteous and condescending.

No, there is no association between the organizations. People may or may not associate with each other at any given moment, but there are no organizational relationships.

The simple answer to your question is that you "do not hear or see any major criticism..." because you haven't bothered to put yourself in a position to do so. If you aren't around Keene or privy to conversations held between Keeniacs and other folks, how can you possibly know the level of criticism they may or may not receive from libertarians, or anyone else?

Bear in mind that there are people who "hate and are disgusted by" all sorts of things. That doesn't mean that their positions have any value.

So, again, if you have some specific concerns, you should raise them with the appropriate people. If you are too busy or lazy and would prefer that other people do your work for you, feel free to make an offer of employment. Alternatively, you could pay someone to investigate and keep track of any local criticisms leveled at FK and/or the people involved, and send you periodic reports. 
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Argentum

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2014, 06:17:21 am »

Auspicious,

Two things worth mentioning. Firstly, this is the prospective participants sub forum.  As a potential joiner (although now the potential is close to zero), I was making an inquiry and voicing a concern over my reservations about my joining of the FSP.  Why would I address my concerns to FK?    Secondly, I did qualify my criticism/inquiry, in at least one response, that I am not well informed due to the fact that I am not in NH.  I am relying on this forum, the Ridley Report and FK for my information.  I am not privy to the scuttlebutt of the liberty movement.
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dalebert

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2014, 08:34:37 am »

It was actually not that hard to follow conversations people were having with the Keeniacs online for a while. Like I said, those conversations were fairly heated at once time but have long since died down when it became apparent that Keeniacs are unresponsive to criticism, constructive or otherwise. They were being criticized on many forums (I think this one too but I'm going from memory so not sure), from YouTube videos, blogs, from callers into Ian's show, etc.

Auspicious Aspect

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2014, 12:17:16 pm »

Auspicious,

Two things worth mentioning. Firstly, this is the prospective participants sub forum.  As a potential joiner (although now the potential is close to zero), I was making an inquiry and voicing a concern over my reservations about my joining of the FSP.  Why would I address my concerns to FK?    Secondly, I did qualify my criticism/inquiry, in at least one response, that I am not well informed due to the fact that I am not in NH.  I am relying on this forum, the Ridley Report and FK for my information.  I am not privy to the scuttlebutt of the liberty movement.

Sure, this is the prospective participants sub forum, but that doesn't describe you. You have made that clear in more than one thread. You actually go out of your way to start new threads just so you can state that you aren't going to participate. That is the classic description of a troll. You are just here to stir up rancor, breed divisiveness, and generally try to throw sand into the works.

The reason that I suggest that you address questions about FK to FK, or questions about FTL to FTL, is that both of those organizations have their own forums, neither of which is this forum. This place is for prospective FSP participants, not for critics of unrelated groups to whine about their personal agendas.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2014, 03:43:21 pm »

I've criticized FK from time to time, and received some flak in return for it. But generally, it's just not worth the energy to try to tear other activists down and create drama. When you get to NH, you are probably best served just trying to be a good neighbor and make a positive case for the kinds of things that you are doing. It is easy to ignore what happens in Keene if you try. Don't let a tiny minority of Free Staters define you. The best answer to Free Keene is to out-compete them.
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politicalGRAFFITI

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2014, 09:01:35 pm »

Can't lump everyone together...

Keeniac James Cleaveland

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VraI0aJCeRU&feature=youtu.be

lildog

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2014, 08:57:58 am »

However, I think that if some people are a detriment to the liberty movement, either because they are turning off more people than they are turning on to the movement, or because they are doing things that are anti-liberty, they must be criticized.

I have made this same point a few times.

Pro government people in NH do use the extreme examples as a way to attack entire groups.  It doesn't matter that there are very good people involved in the FSP who have accomplished quite a bit, the pro government groups will bring up the most extreme cases and try to lump anyone even remotely associated with the group with those extremes.

This isn't exclusive to the FSP.  They are doing the same to the Tea party groups and anyone else who dares oppose expanding government.
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MaineShark

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2014, 07:34:21 am »

Pro government people in NH do use the extreme examples as a way to attack entire groups.  It doesn't matter that there are very good people involved in the FSP who have accomplished quite a bit, the pro government groups will bring up the most extreme cases and try to lump anyone even remotely associated with the group with those extremes.

This isn't exclusive to the FSP.  They are doing the same to the Tea party groups and anyone else who dares oppose expanding government.

And they'll do that, regardless.  They will take any example and make it "extreme" by their rhetoric, if that's what serves their purpose.  No matter how mild your behavior, if that behavior opposes their goals and it serves their purposes to do so, they will paint you as an extremist.
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dalebert

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2014, 09:16:32 am »

I have made this same point a few times.

Pro government people in NH do use the extreme examples as a way to attack entire groups.  It doesn't matter that there are very good people involved in the FSP who have accomplished quite a bit, the pro government groups will bring up the most extreme cases and try to lump anyone even remotely associated with the group with those extremes.

This is a common tactic and it's very frustrating that it happens. Stressing about this will drive you nuts though. Trying to control everyone else's activism is exhausting and ultimately futile. I think we just have to try to do a better job of expressing our own messages and fight misleading speech with better speech instead of trying to stop all the behavior of the attention-getting types.

As I said, many of us tried for quite a while. It didn't work. Accept they're going to do what they're going to do and just do our best on our own plans.

apugh75

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2014, 12:23:04 pm »

I've criticized FK from time to time, and received some flak in return for it. But generally, it's just not worth the energy to try to tear other activists down and create drama. When you get to NH, you are probably best served just trying to be a good neighbor and make a positive case for the kinds of things that you are doing. It is easy to ignore what happens in Keene if you try. Don't let a tiny minority of Free Staters define you. The best answer to Free Keene is to out-compete them.

I think that should be emphasised.  The Free Keene people are only a handful the liberty activists in New Hampshire.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2014, 08:20:16 pm »

Hey Argentum,

I see you ignored Maineshark's thoughtful post about age of consent.

Rather than just vaguely accusing me of having some sort of outrageous view, why don't you just get specific?

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FTL_Ian

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2014, 08:34:32 pm »

Also, Keene activists have been criticized for years in various places (usually by people shit-talking our activism behind our backs).  Not all of it is done quietly, though.  Perhaps you missed the critique of me and Free Keene that actually appeared on the Free Keene blog?

Here it is from former blogger Will May (he quit - I didn't demote him):
http://freekeene.com/2012/03/21/peaceful-devolution/

Keene activism is the subject of much debate and derision, because we make an impact, and so therefore people form opinions about it, good and bad.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2014, 09:31:23 pm »

I'm an early mover. I don't live anywhere near Keene or subscribe to Free Keene's tactics. But you may be a little too uptight for the FSP if you're more concerned about badmouthing their tactics than you are the most murderous, rapingest, thievingest, kidnappingest organization on the planet... the State.

Also, can liberty people at least stop talking about Free Keene as though it has "tactics"?  Free Keene is a blog that reports on as much activism as we can from political to civ dis.  If there's something you don't like, then critique away, but don't kill the messenger.

Free Keene reports on stuff happening in Manchester.  Is that also Free Keene activism?  This makes no sense.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 10:06:59 pm by FTL_Ian »
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