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Author Topic: NH almost the least religious state  (Read 21671 times)

lildog

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2014, 08:49:41 am »

Nope, the opinion polls all show that support for choice has been increasing over the same timespan.
Majority rules does not make something right.  If it did then the whole libertarian movement is doomed and we should all give up and submit to the collective.

I didn't suggest that it did.  Argentum claimed that abortion rates are down because more and more folks oppose abortion and, therefore, don't get them.  But the statistics say that's not the case.  More and more folks believe that abortion is acceptable, so if abortion rates were based upon opinion, then they would be increasing, not decreasing.

Abortion is decreasing because no one really wants to get one (or, no significant number - there are always sickos out there, but they would still exist and get them if abortion were illegal, if they actually had some mental illness compelling them to get abortions), and there are better options available.  Those who want to see abortion rates continue dropping should seek to expand those options.

I disagree with the part I put in bold.  This is a case of poll wording leading to very different results.  The polls showing majority support are the ones specifically asking if abortions should be legal, not if they are acceptable.  When specifically asked if they are morally "acceptable" the majority say NO.
http://www.lifenews.com/2014/05/08/poll-most-people-in-most-nations-say-abortion-is-morally-unacceptable/

So Argentum could be right because polls show more people are finding abortions morally unacceptable even though majority support keeping them legal.
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MaineShark

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2014, 10:03:41 am »

I disagree with the part I put in bold.  This is a case of poll wording leading to very different results.  The polls showing majority support are the ones specifically asking if abortions should be legal, not if they are acceptable.  When specifically asked if they are morally "acceptable" the majority say NO.
http://www.lifenews.com/2014/05/08/poll-most-people-in-most-nations-say-abortion-is-morally-unacceptable/

So Argentum could be right because polls show more people are finding abortions morally unacceptable even though majority support keeping them legal.

Actually, that poll has been pretty thoroughly discredited.  Pew purchased poll results from other companies, which did not necessarily use the same question wording that Pew gives in its descriptions.

For example, they found that very few Chinese people feel that belief in god is necessary to be moral.  Which is surprising, given that Chinese society is pretty religious.  However, it was determined that the company which actually did the poll used the Chinese word that means specifically the Judeo-Christian-Muslim "God," not deity, in general.  Since most of their poll respondents were not Jews, Christians, or Muslims, of course they answered, "no," while many did believe that belief in their own favored deity was necessary to being moral.

So, if you ask in such a way that the respondent is answering, "do you believe that religious folks find abortion unacceptable?," you will get a different response than if you ask, "in your own personal view of morality, is abortion acceptable?"

Additionally, according to Pew, the US portion was done by random digit dialing.  Generally-speaking, those who actually have lives, don't waste time on such nonsense.  If caller ID lists a survey, I don't answer.  If they sneak through by not listing accurately, I hang up as soon as they tell me they're conducting a survey.  If you do a random phone survey in the US, you're not going to get an accurate cross-section of society; you're going to get folks who have nothing better to do, and folks who are just itching to express their opinions on strangers' lives.  Those who actually have things to do, and/or those who don't feel like they should tell others what to do, are going to be severly under-represented.  In a political survey, that may not matter, as the latter will also be under-represented at the polls, but in a survey of "morality," it matters greatly - the moral position that, "I should not tell others how to live" won't get be accurately counted.
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dalebert

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2014, 10:12:44 am »

2) Allowing an innocent person to be punished while a murderer goes free is not something dictated by the bible as an example for us to follow.  It's part of what was happening at that time in history.  There are several of the stories during the interactions with Jesus of things that were acceptable then that Jesus points out is wrong.

Um, that was an analogy for the idea that Jesus (an innocent) could sacrifice himself and thereby absolve others of sin.  So, yes, that's exactly what the Bible suggests is acceptable.

It's more than just acceptable. It's the most foundational belief of Christianity. There are lots of versions of Christianity with varying beliefs but if you had to filter it all down to the one thing that seems to define the religion, it's the idea that Jesus died for the sins of others. What's the most universal symbol of Christianity? The cross, a symbol of torture and death. I'm glad you brought up the mom guilt-tripping her children, but in her case at least there's no ambiguity. Her pain was merely a side-effect of her labors that resulted in something real and unambiguous--food and shelter for her children. At least she didn't scrub her hands with steel wool and say that ritual of pain keeps invisible demons off them at night, demons who are coming after them because they're NAUGHTY and they deserve it, but she's protecting them anyway with her PAIN and SUFFERING because she just loves them so much. That would be a closer analogy.

John Edward Mercier

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2014, 11:35:34 am »

Odd. I don't think that Jesus died to absolve me of my sins.
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lildog

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2014, 01:18:33 pm »

Dale, what sins?  Jesus dying did not open the door for all men from that point to toss out the 10 commandments and do what they want.  No, he died to absolve mankind of a single sin... the sin of Adam and Eve disobeying God.

"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" Romans 5:19

Taking it one step further (and I unfortunately cannot find the specific passage I'm thinking of), by giving himself up on our behalf, Jesus earned the right to judge people from that point on.

So if tomorrow I volunteered to get nailed to a cross so Charles Manson could be let free wouldn't be the same unless somehow by dying I gained the power to take over as judge in all future trials.
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MaineShark

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2014, 01:46:32 pm »

Jesus dying did not open the door for all men from that point to toss out the 10 commandments and do what they want.

Sure, it did.  Just ask for forgiveness, and all's peachy...

No, he died to absolve mankind of a single sin... the sin of Adam and Eve disobeying God.

Which is a ridiculous, utterly-anti-liberty proposition.  No one can be "tainted" by someone else's behavior.  If Adam and Eve disobeyed, then Adam and Eve, and no others, are responsible.

The door's also left open for some serious questions about Creation.  It's asserted that humans were Created perfect (in which case, how could they even be tempted? but that's another issue), and that disease and the ridiculously-poor design of the human body all came about because of "Original Sin."  If mankind has now been absolved, why did we not then re-attain that physical perfection that supposedly existed in Eden?  What, God's just so petty that He tortures innocents because he holds a grudge against a couple pets he had, thousands or millions of years ago?  That sounds like someone who should be spat-upon, not worshipped.
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

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lildog

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2014, 02:47:39 pm »

Jesus dying did not open the door for all men from that point to toss out the 10 commandments and do what they want.

Sure, it did.  Just ask for forgiveness, and all's peachy...

Forgiveness from whom?  Jesus.  Which goes back to my point about him becoming the judge.

No, he died to absolve mankind of a single sin... the sin of Adam and Eve disobeying God.

Which is a ridiculous, utterly-anti-liberty proposition.  No one can be "tainted" by someone else's behavior.  If Adam and Eve disobeyed, then Adam and Eve, and no others, are responsible.

Well now it comes down to whether you believe the bible to be factual or not.  Per the bible, we all are tainted by someone else's behavior.

But we could just as easily argue about the chemical breakdown of a chemtrail.  If you believe they are real the discussion is much different then if you doubt their existence.
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dalebert

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2014, 03:16:19 pm »

You have a very unusual take on Christianity. I've heard the same thing from SO many people of different denominations that when I hear your version of it (for the first time ever), I can't help but wonder if it's been tailored specifically to be different just to "prove me wrong". It's still just a ridiculous, of course, but in a different way than everyone else's version.

Dale, what sins?  Jesus dying did not open the door for all men from that point to toss out the 10 commandments and do what they want.  No, he died to absolve mankind of a single sin... the sin of Adam and Eve disobeying God.

That's a bizarre way to interpret it. That one act was what made it possible for people to "sin" but people engage in many sins, each of which can only be forgiven by accepting Jesus as your savior. He's very egotistical that way. You can lust and fornicate, steal, rape, and kill, and ultimately get forgiven for all of it but snub the Jeebus and you're doomed. They make a point to label even certain thoughts as sinful so they're completely unavoidable, dooming us all to Hell unless we become Christian. Convenient, aye? Which is patently absurd. Thinking lustful thoughts is a sin. That's right. Biological drives that have been absolutely crucial to the survival of the human race since forever are a sin! Being hungry should be a sin too. You were having sinful thoughts about that watermelon, Maineshark!

Quote
Taking it one step further (and I unfortunately cannot find the specific passage I'm thinking of), by giving himself up on our behalf, Jesus earned the right to judge people from that point on.

As I said, I haven't heard it that way before you and I've heard it many times, but whatever. The result is the same--six one way; half a dozen the other.

MaineShark

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2014, 05:18:34 pm »

Forgiveness from whom?  Jesus.  Which goes back to my point about him becoming the judge.

Ah, so if an innocent person decides to volunteer to be executed on my behalf, I have to ask him to forgive me, and then it's okay?

Well now it comes down to whether you believe the bible to be factual or not.  Per the bible, we all are tainted by someone else's behavior.

Which would tie back to the original topic, nicely, because that's about the most anti-liberty position that it's possible to take.  So, therefore, that would imply that NH being less religious is actually responsible for NH being so liberty-friendly.  So, I guess that Christians must, officially, be anti-liberty, then, right?  And fewer Christians would mean greater liberty, right?

Because it's really just about impossible to find a more anti-liberty position than to claim that someone is responsible for another's act.

You were having sinful thoughts about that watermelon, Maineshark!

Heterosexual men like melons.  What can I say?
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

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lildog

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2014, 08:13:25 am »

Quote
Taking it one step further (and I unfortunately cannot find the specific passage I'm thinking of), by giving himself up on our behalf, Jesus earned the right to judge people from that point on.

As I said, I haven't heard it that way before you and I've heard it many times, but whatever. The result is the same--six one way; half a dozen the other.

I still can't find the specific quote I was thinking but Matthew 25 does touch on the whole point of Jesus being the judge of all.


31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all his angels are with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 The people of every nation will be gathered in front of him. He will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right but the goats on his left.

34 “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, my Father has blessed you! Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me into your home. 36 I needed clothes, and you gave me something to wear. I was sick, and you took care of me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

37 “Then the people who have God’s approval will reply to him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you or see you thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you as a stranger and take you into our homes or see you in need of clothes and give you something to wear? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 “The king will answer them, ‘I can guarantee this truth: Whatever you did for one of my brothers or sisters, no matter how unimportant they seemed, you did for me.’

41 “Then the king will say to those on his left, ‘Get away from me! God has cursed you! Go into everlasting fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels! 42 I was hungry, and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me into your homes. I needed clothes, and you didn’t give me anything to wear. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t take care of me.’

44 “They, too, will ask, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or as a stranger or in need of clothes or sick or in prison and didn’t help you?’

45 “He will answer them, ‘I can guarantee this truth: Whatever you failed to do for one of my brothers or sisters, no matter how unimportant they seemed, you failed to do for me.’

46 “These people will go away into eternal punishment, but those with God’s approval will go into eternal life.”
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lildog

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2014, 08:25:25 am »

Well now it comes down to whether you believe the bible to be factual or not.  Per the bible, we all are tainted by someone else's behavior.

Which would tie back to the original topic, nicely, because that's about the most anti-liberty position that it's possible to take.  So, therefore, that would imply that NH being less religious is actually responsible for NH being so liberty-friendly.  So, I guess that Christians must, officially, be anti-liberty, then, right?  And fewer Christians would mean greater liberty, right?

Because it's really just about impossible to find a more anti-liberty position than to claim that someone is responsible for another's act.

First off, the discussion of whether Christianity is pro or anti liberty is a different topic then the main point of this thread.  Not to take this current thread off topic but the concept of humanity being tainted by Adam and Eve's original sin would be similar to whether a dog's owner should be responsible for that dog attacking a child.  Admittedly that's not a perfect analogy but closest I could come up with on a whim. 

The whole point of Jesus clearing away the sins put on us as a species and allow us free will to choose right and wrong on our own in my opinion is the very concept of liberty.  We are each now responsible for our own actions.

But getting to my 2nd point, this thread is turning into a specific discussion about Christianity but the title is least religious state with the premiss being any religion leads to lack of freedom and lack of any religion leads to increased freedom.  That goes far beyond the belief of the bible or Jesus since we have many many many other faiths which don't believe those things.
Paganism (depending on the flavor practiced) is a religion which doesn't follow the bible or believe in Jesus for instance.  And of the many pagans I know, I would not call them anti religious in the least.  In fact with all their rituals I would consider them more religious then many Catholics I know who do nothing more then show up on Easter and Christmas. 
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MaineShark

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2014, 08:48:42 am »

Not to take this current thread off topic but the concept of humanity being tainted by Adam and Eve's original sin would be similar to whether a dog's owner should be responsible for that dog attacking a child.  Admittedly that's not a perfect analogy but closest I could come up with on a whim.

That's not analogous, at all.  It's like saying, "I was bit by a dog, once, so now I beat every dog I see."

The whole point of Jesus clearing away the sins put on us as a species and allow us free will to choose right and wrong on our own in my opinion is the very concept of liberty.  We are each now responsible for our own actions.

Except that you can just ask Jesus to forgive you if you do something wrong.  Not your victim.  Having daddy make it all better is not personal responsibility.  Owning up to your choices and living with the consequences, is.

But getting to my 2nd point, this thread is turning into a specific discussion about Christianity but the title is least religious state with the premiss being any religion leads to lack of freedom and lack of any religion leads to increased freedom.  That goes far beyond the belief of the bible or Jesus since we have many many many other faiths which don't believe those things.

Yes, but if one major religion is anti-liberty, then reductions in the overall frequency of religion would likely include reductions in that anti-liberty religion and, therefore, increase liberty.

There aren't many insects on top of Mt. Washington in the winter.  That also means that there are not many mosquitoes up there.
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

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dalebert

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #87 on: May 22, 2014, 09:47:12 am »

First off, the discussion of whether Christianity is pro or anti liberty is a different topic then the main point of this thread.

Calling Christianity "anti-liberty" is a sweeping statement that over-simplifies points made. It is, however, pretty easy to point out how an overly-religious culture tends to impact liberty in at least some areas, particularly in attempting to legislate morality like with blue laws, book bans, etc.

The whole point of Jesus clearing away the sins put on us as a species and allow us free will to choose right and wrong on our own in my opinion is the very concept of liberty.  We are each now responsible for our own actions.

But getting to my 2nd point, this thread is turning into a specific discussion about Christianity...

It's the predominant and most culture-impacting religion in the U.S. so that's not surprising.

...but the title is least religious state with the premiss being any religion leads to lack of freedom and lack of any religion leads to increased freedom.

I've already addressed and debunked that straw man. That was never my claim. My main point was that it's just an appealing aspect of the state from my albeit biased agnostic/atheist POV. I've only brought attention to specific cases, like blue laws, in which it generally does appear to have a negative impact, but that's only after other people brought that up.

Paganism (depending on the flavor practiced) is a religion which doesn't follow the bible or believe in Jesus for instance.  And of the many pagans I know, I would not call them anti religious in the least.  In fact with all their rituals I would consider them more religious then many Catholics I know who do nothing more then show up on Easter and Christmas.

I wouldn't call them anti-religious either. I know of many pagans who had irrational beliefs, like that they could alter reality by casting spells (Christians do too but they call it prayer). That said, pagans as a whole are relatively weak as far as their impact on the culture. Christianity is the default religion here for all practical purposes.

John Edward Mercier

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2014, 01:36:02 pm »

Jesus dying did not open the door for all men from that point to toss out the 10 commandments and do what they want.

Sure, it did.  Just ask for forgiveness, and all's peachy...

No, he died to absolve mankind of a single sin... the sin of Adam and Eve disobeying God.

Which is a ridiculous, utterly-anti-liberty proposition.  No one can be "tainted" by someone else's behavior.  If Adam and Eve disobeyed, then Adam and Eve, and no others, are responsible.

The door's also left open for some serious questions about Creation.  It's asserted that humans were Created perfect (in which case, how could they even be tempted? but that's another issue), and that disease and the ridiculously-poor design of the human body all came about because of "Original Sin."  If mankind has now been absolved, why did we not then re-attain that physical perfection that supposedly existed in Eden?  What, God's just so petty that He tortures innocents because he holds a grudge against a couple pets he had, thousands or millions of years ago?  That sounds like someone who should be spat-upon, not worshipped.
Created perfect? I read it more as being ignorant - the chief pet in the garden.
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dalebert

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Re: NH almost the least religious state
« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2014, 07:14:47 pm »

There. Religion no longer necessary!

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