Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Are we really ready for this?  (Read 11991 times)

Thermal

  • FSP Participant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15
  • I'm (not) a llama but I play one in the ether!
    • Nifty Nonsense
Re:Are we really ready for this?
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2002, 08:38:01 pm »

Well johnny, you strike me as someone who is a little naive. Now don't take that as an insult, as it isn't meant that way.

To begin with, your example is not what I would call a "violent comment". Our founding fathers knew the value of an armed citizenry, and the effect it has on protecting individual liberty. Now if you'll allow me to go off topic I'd like to post a couple of my favorites.

"To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the
people always possess arms and be taught alike...how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will
preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."
        Patrick Henry during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution

(above borrowed from attrition.org}
who have a nice collection here: http://www.attrition.org/quotes/guns.html and here:http://www.attrition.org/quotes/freedom.html if you'd like to know where I'm coming from. These people make my point far better and more eloquently than I could.

In closing I'd like to say to you johnnyg that I very much disagree with what you're getting at. Frankly I think you misunderstand what this project, and the Constitution, is really about.

Sorry my inaugural post turned into such a rant - not to mention wavering mostly off topic but this "trigger happy" nonsense really gets to me.

Yours in liberty,
   Tim
Logged
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

johnnyg

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Are we really ready for this?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2002, 02:39:22 pm »

As I understand your position, anytime I *feel* my liberty is being violated, I have the right to react violently. Is this what you are really saying?

Implying you'll shoot federal agents isnt a violent comment? I feel its nothing but a violent comment.

Perhaps I'm crazy or have grossly misunderstood your position. I am willing to listen but you're going to have to majorly clarify your position.
Logged

JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5724
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re:Are we really ready for this?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2002, 03:20:19 pm »

No FSP member has ever advocated violence against government employees here, and I am sure none ever will.
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Mega Joule

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 291
Re:Are we really ready for this?
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2002, 12:02:02 am »


No FSP member has ever advocated violence against government employees here, and I am sure none ever will.


Absolutely!  We're zealous, not crazy.   ;)

Meg
Logged
"One essential of a free government is that it rest wholly on voluntary support.  And one certain proof that a goverment is not free, is that it coerces more or less persons to support it, against their will."  (Lysander Spooner, 1867)

Midway76

  • Guest
Re:Are we really ready for this?
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2002, 08:11:03 am »

johnnyg reminds me of those self-styled "protectors of children" who frequent adult chat sites trying to entrap one into makeing injudicious remarks by pretending to be a precocious 13 year old girl.  That aside, violence is not an evil concept.  It only means acting with great physical force, so as to injure or damage (per the dictionary).  There are many cases where violence is appropriate, defense of self and others comes to mind.  A whole other concept is Aggression which is the unprovoked attack on another.  I have certainly not read of anyone here advocating either the use of violence or aggression against "government agents" but that does not mean the use of violence could not be justified.  Just read the news about "police officers" who use their positions to kidnap and rape women for instance.  Surely johnnyg would allow the women involved the use of violence against such "government agents" in their defense?

Just a thought.
Logged

johnnyg

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Are we really ready for this?
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2002, 11:55:59 am »

I'm amazed you all can glean so much information about me from a few posts. Perhaps with such talent this project will get off the ground.

I was new to the site, I looked up an interesting thread after reading the FAQ, and I see comments about shooting people coming for you. Perhaps that doesn't represent the entire entity, however, it none the less needs to be addressed. The Black Panthers didn't represent the civil rights movement, but they did affect it.

I need to remind you all that we have a justice system for a reason. The reason is that the quality of life for everyone improves when you use words to solve disputes instead of violence. You seem to advocate this position in your "take over a state using the law" idea. Yet, when I suggest it is a bad idea to stand fast in your position until it meets a violent end I'm flamed. I'm not answered in four posts, I'm just yelled down.

The one situation I was given has no corralation to the present one. You are (generally) americans unhappy with a system of government so oppressive that you're allowed to found an elaborate website detailing how you plan on changing it. Yeah, things aren't close to perfect  but you are hardly being forced into an ally to be raped.

Quote
That aside, violence is not an evil concept.  It only means acting with great physical force, so as to injure or damage (per the dictionary).


This depends greatly on how you view violence. If you view violence as an isolated occurance, just one rape in one ally at one time, then you would be in the clear to use great physical force.

If you have a more broad definition of violence, say, as THE plauge of the human race - the thing that allowed millions of people to die on battlefields and gas chambers and their own houses as they were killed by people whose parents taught violence. Furthermore, the thing that people like Ghandi and MLK proved you can over come with non-violence, then you might take a different approach.
Logged

Elizabeth

  • Former FSP Vice President
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1650
  • Someone has to ask the tough questions...
    • Free State Project
Re:Are we really ready for this?
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2002, 12:21:06 pm »

johnnyg, please check out this post from the founder of the FSP:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=411
Logged

RidleyReport

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3530
Re:Are we really ready for this?
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2002, 11:06:36 pm »

MouseBorg wrote:

Quote

Agreeing as well with not wishing to see the locals mobilize against us, we may need to strike a middle ground somehow.



We have a thread and (gasp) a possible consensus on this subject over at http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?action=search2  if anyone is interested in joining in.

Logged
http://RidleyReport.com
http://NHexit.com - If Britain can do it, New Hampshire can do it

Penfist

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 814
  • Work together to build something that lasts.
    • Penfist
Re:Are we really ready for this?
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2002, 10:10:13 am »

Quote
What's with all the violent comments? "I keep my gun oiled and ready" - like shooting one as they come for you will do anything to further liberty. All it will do it make a few more kids fatherless.

It seems this project has chosen america because, despite everything, it has a system that could promote "liberty" theoretically. It promotes this by the law (Constitution) and not by the sword (or oiled gun).

Your comments make a curious observer (like myself) wonder if you are the type of people who are really ready to do something of this magnitude correctly. Personally, I think I'll keep an eye on your interesting project but I seriously doubt I want to be directly associated with such a trigger happy bunch.


I'd have to say that there is a huge difference between self-defense and murder. If someone decides to defend his or her home against what he or she considers an invasion, I certainly have no problem with it.

I don't get the feeling anyone serious about the FSP is also seriously trigger happy. Why the hell would someone waste time planning to move cross country if they have a death wish and dreams of some sort of glorious martyr's death?

The vast majority of FSPers are dedicated to living free. No part of living free includes a license to murder those we disagree with. I think you're a little bit paranoid if you think we want to go out in some blaze of glory, with our guns chattering and our homes on fire. I want to die old and happy in my bed.

You make a completely irrational comment when you state that America promotes law by the Constitution and not by the sword. Who are you kidding, friend? Do you think most people would follow the laws without the force that backs those laws up? When laws are broken, people with guns come. Laws without swords to back them up are as useless as a voting Democrat released into the wilderness to fend for itself.

Please stop mischarecterizing us as a trigger-happy bunch until you have some basis for your agrument.

Thanks.
Logged
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
--Thomas Jefferson
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up