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Author Topic: Another Wyoming Report is up  (Read 2856 times)

freedomroad

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Another Wyoming Report is up
« on: April 18, 2003, 11:13:30 am »

As Jason said on the main FSP page, a new Wyoming Report is up.  This report is 48 or so pages long and covers Wyoming in great detail.  If you think that is long, it was 75 pages but I cut out a lot of information.  

Do not worry, you do not have to read all 48 pages at one time.  The report is broken down into 6 sections:
Ability to Succeed
Government and Taxes
Guns, Laws, and Resistance to the Federal Government
Groups That Could Work Against Freedom
Miscellaneous Factors
Conclusion

Read one whenever you get the time and read the rest later.

If you have qestions about Wyoming and want them answered, read the report.
http://www.freestateproject.org/wyoming2.htm



If you think I did not cover some thing, Charles is still working on another report about Wyoming.  Maybe, if you get with him, he will include whatever you are thinking of in his report.
http://www.charlescurley.com/fsp.html
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Robert H.

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Re:Another Wyoming Report is up
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2003, 07:12:30 pm »

This is the most comprehensive and in-depth state report that I've seen to date; check it out if you haven't seen it yet.

Excellent work, Keith.

Kelton Baker

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Re:Another Wyoming Report is up
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2003, 01:00:08 pm »

I finally got a chance to read more of this report and I was particularly discouraged by the present cynical disparagement of certain groups of people in the section labeled, "Groups That Could Work Against Freedom".  Perhaps because I am either affiliated, closely familiar and/or emotionally tied to the people recognized in those five groups.  I feel that if we try too hard to identify groups that may work against us, we may never identify the individuals that will work with us.

In regards to Native Americans, I have worked and associated closely with many, throughout my whole life.  What I have observed is a seething hatred for Washington D.C. and a desire to be free of the Federal government all together.  I have even observed a certain hatred for welfare benefits and entitlement programs, even among its users.  For the politically astute, there is truly potential among these people.  Correct me if I am wrong, but the Alaska Independent Party derived much of its success from appealing to Native Alaskan sentiment. . .

Labor unions were long ago overtaken by the Marxists and World-wide Wobblies, but that does not necessarily mean that all of labor membership are in lock-step with their principles.  There have been several libertarians post on these threads who have revealed their membership in labor unions.  Libertarian principles are actually more in harmony with having the trades guilds and labor unions that existed in the early part of the history of this country, not the 'big-labor' groups that have become an arm of the government today.  But certainly there are many labor proponents who would support free market principles.

I would also point-out that there have been many Green-party members who have posted around here who feel that they share much in common with Libertarians.  Surely there are many free-thinking individuals among the Greens who would agree with principles of liberty, if only presented to them.

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that Wyoming is an excellent choice because it is, by far, the most diversified in religious affiliation, because, like the report stated,
Quote
If the major religions of one of the other candidate states stood united against freedom, we would have a very difficult time trying to help the state break free. That's why religious diversity is important. In a state like Wyoming, all of the religions would have to stand against us to have a substantial impact against the FSP . . .
After all, it was a long and troubled history of religious strife and the movement of different religious groups that helped bring about the First Ammendment and religious freedom and a country that was decidedly secular in its "ministration", all ingredients of a free society.

But the idea that the Latter-Day Saint or Mormon people would be among the "Groups That Could Work Against Freedom" simply because they are "whole-heartedly against such trivial activities as smoking, drinking, and using products that contain caffeine reflects an attitude that carried to its logical conclusion will ultimately find us without anyone to find as allies in our effort to obtain freedom.  Especially in light of the fact that numerous times on this discussion board the conclusion has been drawn, echoing these words of an activist in Idaho, "The Mormons are not a negative, they are a big time positive, with enemies being what they are."  I would point-out that Utah, with about 60% Mormon population consistently ranks higher than most of our candidate states on the RLC index, and this despite having a senator that constantly brings out those hideous "Hatch Ammendments", in addition, Utah had 25 states score higher on the ALA index of smoking regulations, despite all this anti-smoking religious belief.  I could go on with this theme, and I certainly will, once I get more time to write down my thoughts, but over on the 'Religion and Liberty' thread.

What we face, in our quest for freedom, is not to find voters and friends who are permissive to the point of being morally unrestrained, no! What we seek are individuals who understand the distinction between government and society.  

I am a little wary to identify groups that might oppose us except by their proven track records.  I am concerned by the Catholic church and its bishops testifying before the UN telling that "rich nations need to share their wealth with poor nations", then identifying taxation as a method for bringing about such equality, but I would most certainly not write-off members of the Catholic church.  I am concerned that the Presbyterian Church has adopted an anti-gun stance, but I would not write-off Presbyterians as enemies of freedom for that matter either.  

Anyways, I wish I had more time to develop these thoughts, for the present please just consider this post a rant until I can bring up some more objective examples myself.  Now having criticized, I offer praise to the work of Keith Carlsen in getting this report written, it is a lot of work and very valuable to put forth the call for Wyoming.

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« Last Edit: April 22, 2003, 02:45:03 pm by exitus »
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Give me some men who are stout-hearted men Who will fight for the right they adore. Start me with ten, who are stout-hearted men And I'll soon give you ten thousand more...--O. Hammerstein

freedomroad

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Re:Another Wyoming Report is up
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2003, 09:51:48 pm »



In regards to Native Americans, I have worked and associated closely with many, throughout my whole life.  What I have observed is a seething hatred for Washington D.C. and a desire to be free of the Federal government all together.  I have even observed a certain hatred for welfare benefits and entitlement programs, even among its users.  For the politically astute, there is truly potential among these people.  Correct me if I am wrong, but the Alaska Independent Party derived much of its success from appealing to Native Alaskan sentiment. . .

I tried to be as positive and upbeat about Native Americas as I could.  I did this because, even though they (as a whole) have a recent history of trying to destroy freedom, they have done little harm and even some good.

Quote
But the idea that the Latter-Day Saint or Mormon people would be among the "Groups That Could Work Against Freedom" simply because they are "whole-heartedly against such trivial activities as smoking, drinking, and using products that contain caffeine reflects an attitude that carried to its logical conclusion will ultimately find us without anyone to find as allies in our effort to obtain freedom.  

When I say they are against such things, I mean they ARE against them.  They make laws and try to make laws that ban these and many other things.  They try to ban coffee shops!  Clearly, there is some historic tie between LDS members and lose of personal and economic freedoms.

Quote
I would point-out that Utah, with about 60% Mormon population consistently ranks higher than most of our candidate states on the RLC index, and this despite having a senator that constantly brings out those hideous "Hatch Ammendments", in addition, Utah had 25 states score higher on the ALA index of smoking regulations, despite all this anti-smoking religious belief.  I could go on with this theme, and I certainly will, once I get more time to write down my thoughts, but over on the 'Religion and Liberty' thread.

How does Utah's 60% compare with Wyoming's 5%-7%?  Wyoming is the best state according to the Republican Liberty C. (for both personal and economic freedoms) and has the best record on making libertarian smoking laws.

Quote
I am a little wary to identify groups that might oppose us except by their proven track records.

All of the groups I mentioned have a prove track record or voting or supporting anti-libertarian and anti-constitutional people.  All of them!  You make a good point.  Maybe I should have written 300 words on each group, explaining their anti-freedom track record.  However, that would have made the already grossly long report, another 2-3 pages long.

Quote
Anyways, I wish I had more time to develop these thoughts, for the present please just consider this post a rant until I can bring up some more objective examples myself.  Now having criticized, I offer praise to the work of Keith Carlsen in getting this report written, it is a lot of work and very valuable to put forth the call for Wyoming.

I do hear what you are saying.  We do not want to make enemies with everyone, or even anyone.  I understand that many people in Unions do not support socialist.  However, even if union members do not want to support socialist, the law says they have to in many states.  I am just trying to identify the major groups of people that have a proven track record of being anti-freedom.  I find that one of the most import factors into deciding which state to move the FSP members to.  It just so happens that Wyoming is tops in that factor, like so many other factors.

Thank you, Exitus for your words.  I am glad to hear that you agree and disagree with me at the same time.  I am glad to see you thinking about why words and about the FSP and how my words react to the overall picture.
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Kelton Baker

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Re:Another Wyoming Report is up
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2003, 10:43:37 am »

I posted a partial response here:
Why Mormons Should Be Libertarians

After more thought, I do agree that you've correctly identified groups that may oppose us, FreedomRoad.  My main contention is that the list is entirely incomplete, it needs to include almost every group out there except bona fide libertarians, and even among that group I sometimes wonder.

All the more reason to choose a low-population state like Wyoming!


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Give me some men who are stout-hearted men Who will fight for the right they adore. Start me with ten, who are stout-hearted men And I'll soon give you ten thousand more...--O. Hammerstein
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