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Author Topic: A few thoughts about timelines  (Read 7798 times)

wolverine307

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A few thoughts about timelines
« on: July 28, 2003, 07:57:53 pm »

I've read quite a bit of this forum over the past weekend and contributed a few posts of my own along the way. I sense that a few posters seem to take the idea of "liberty in our lifetime" as being something that will be accomplished easily and quickly. I disagree with this assessment.

Collectively, we have had a good deal of brainwashing about the proper role of government since the Great Depression. We (collectively) have become so accustomed to government intrusion into our lives that we (collectively) barely yawn whenever the latest and greatest scheme comes down the pike. That will take quite a while to overcome, even in NH.

We are selling the sizzle, not the steak. We always need to stress "benefits, benefits, benefits" whenever dealing with the locals. We need to work within whatever system we find. That takes time. It'll take a while before the benefits are visible.

All this talk of "taking over" is the kiss of death. Nobody likes to be "taken over." I certainly don't like pushy salesmen, and I suspect that others don't either.

I see the best shot for overall success comes from picking the low hanging fruit first, going after small uncontested offices and issues first and letting the benefits of the marketplace speak for themselves. We gradually build from there.

I look at this as a massive stealth campaign. Let the folks come to think of privatization as normal and natural as they do statism now. It'll take time to embed that idea into the mindset of the populace. People don't like change. It is threatening. A confused mind always says "no."

So what do I suggest as a practical matter? Being a capitalist at heart, I almost always follow the money. What will our cadre of volunteers do when the fruits of the movement don't seem to paying immediate rewards? Many will lose heart. This brings me back to the money.

It is easier to be patient when you have access to the better parts of life, like: a nice paying job, the chance to see your favorite musicians, take a gander at those historical places you've always wanted to see, etc....

There aren't too many spots of our Western choices that have the critical mass of employment, culture, etc... to keep us amused while resting from our libertarian labors.  I know that Anchorage and Boise aren't exactly Podunk, but they pale in comparison to places like Boston, Philly, Baltimore, and DC, agreed?

With this theory in mind, the only two reasonable alternatives are: DE and NH.

I've read all of the past postings on the merits and downfalls of DE. To be sure the challenge of Wilmington will not be easy to work through, but it is not impossible. The rest of the state (south of the canal) seems doable.

The existing political parties are like weather vanes, they will say and do whatever is necessary to stay in office, which means that they'll co-opt our issues when they see them bearing fruits. So what? The color of the cat is irrelevant as long as it catches mice. DE is doable if we take a LT perspective.

I'd like to thank all of the NH advocates that have obviously done their homework and have made a persuasive argument. NH is not without its pluses, they have been well documented and will spare the reader by not rehashing them again.

If one wants to "make a statement" then perhaps WY is the best choice. But when the effort proves harder and longer than anticipated, how many will go home because of the harsh winters and lack of jobs?

Not that a winter in New England is a walk in the park (I was stationed at the Groton sub base), but having a decent near term economic future and a chance to see Bunker Hill, the Old North Church, Fenway Park, etc.... will take a lot of the stress out of the struggle while waiting for it to bear fruit.

Personally, I put more weight on economic factors than social ones. Perhaps it is my 21 years in the Navy that makes me more willing to accept governement imposed restrictions?

It's the economy, stupid. DE and NH are so far above the other choices on this scale that it makes it a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

However, I respect the rights of others to disagree with me.
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wolverine307

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2003, 08:26:43 am »

I thought of an analogy to help make my point. During WWII the Chinese army has woefully underequipped. They had more soliders than rifles.

During a Chinese assault they would do it in waves, advancing the rifles with each successive waves until the rifles were eventually in a position to do some good against the enemy. So it is with us.

This is a massive undertaking. It'll involve capturing the schools, churches, meeting houses, and legislative chambers. It would be foolish to expect the battle to be without setbacks. The enemy is well entrenched, well funded, and has control of the media, but he is not invincable.

How many of us are willing to advance the rifle knowing that it'll be the following waves (generations) to reap the benefits?
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guy777

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2003, 12:07:03 am »

Posted by: wolverine307  Posted on: July 29, 2003, 09:26:43 am  
Quote
I thought of an analogy to help make my point. During WWII the Chinese army has woefully underequipped. They had more soliders than rifles.

During a Chinese assault they would do it in waves, advancing the rifles with each successive waves until the rifles were eventually in a position to do some good against the enemy. So it is with us.

This is a massive undertaking. It'll involve capturing the schools, churches, meeting houses, and legislative chambers. It would be foolish to expect the battle to be without setbacks. The enemy is well entrenched, well funded, and has control of the media, but he is not invincable.

How many of us are willing to advance the rifle knowing that it'll be the following waves (generations) to reap the benefits?  


Great analogy, I going to assume that the Chinese were sucessful. Goes to show what we can do if we just put our heads together. Mind over matter!
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EMOR

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2003, 11:13:45 am »

You make it sound like Wyoming is Siberia with no heaters. Harsh winters my behind. I have lived in the NE area and the winters are just as bad there as in Wyoming. Also using the "it's the economy stupid" is well stupid. When the government raises taxes and spends like crazy then we have a good economy, example Clinton era. When the government lowers taxes and spends like crazy then we have a bad economy, example Bush era's. The statement should be "we need higher taxes stupid" that would be more appropriate for your line of thinking.
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JonM

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2003, 11:47:10 am »

You make it sound like Wyoming is Siberia with no heaters. Harsh winters my behind. I have lived in the NE area and the winters are just as bad there as in Wyoming.

I grew up in Florida, and I now live 20 miles or so south of New Hampshire, and I've never had much of a problem with the winters here in the last 9 years.

The only issue I had with this last winter was it got cold and stayed cold for a longer stretch of time than it usually does.  Seemed like we had a couple of straight weeks where the temp was in the teens or 20s, when usually you'd get a break after a few really cold days with a couple above freezing.  It never got cold enough to prevent my SUV from starting right up.  And I don't think I've seen too many people in northern MA or southern NH with block heaters.  When you get up into northern NH it might be different.
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wolverine307

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2003, 11:55:24 am »

Quote
You make it sound like Wyoming is Siberia with no heaters. Harsh winters my behind.

Then answer this question; When I was stationed at the Sub Base in Groton, CT I saw no block heaters during my time in New England. When I traveled thru WY I saw them all over. Is having a block heater some kind of status symbol in WY?

Outside of the 21 years I spent in the Navy I have lived my entire life here in MI (I am 46). I have never seen a block heater south of the Upper Peninsula. Nobody would confuse MI with Miami Beach in the winter.

Quote
Also using the "it's the economy stupid" is well stupid.

Despite your proven inability to disagree civilly, I will respond to your statement.

Quote
When the government raises taxes and spends like crazy then we have a good economy, example Clinton era. When the government lowers taxes and spends like crazy then we have a bad economy, example Bush era's. The statement should be "we need higher taxes stupid" that would be more appropriate for your line of thinking.

Where did you get all of this? Obviously you have no clue as what I am thinking or else you wouldn't make a statement like that. I am somewhat disappointed to see that you asked for no clarification/elaboration of my stance if you disagreed with anything I said. That's how you have a dialogue, not by flying off the handle and trying to start a flame war when you see a point of disagreement.

You're talking a national effect when you discuss federal taxation, which is what I assume you're doing. I'm talking regional economic differences here. By all of the wealth metrics discussed on other parts of ths web site DE ranks pretty darn high among the 10 candidates. There is no perfect option, so we must focus on what each consider important.

This is going to be a long struggle and I have no problem with advocating the option that will best maximize my financial well-being while I wait for the efforts to bear fruit.

You are welcome to disagree with me, but I expect you to do so with the same level of civility in which I address you if you expect to have a discussion.

To me DE is a slam dunk, with NH running second. I'm still trying to tease out the rest of the options.
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Michelle

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2003, 11:58:17 am »

And I don't think I've seen too many people in northern MA or southern NH with block heaters.  When you get up into northern NH it might be different.


I don't even know what I block heater is. (???)
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wolverine307

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2003, 12:01:15 pm »

Quote
don't even know what I block heater is. (???)

It's a heater that goes over the block of your engine to ensure that your vehicle will start in the morning.
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Michelle

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2003, 12:04:58 pm »

Quote
don't even know what I block heater is. (???)

It's a heater that goes over the block of your engine to ensure that your vehicle will start in the morning.

Oh, no. I've never seen those in NH. I live in Southern NH where it is milder, but do have a hunting/snowmobiling camp up in the mountains (close to where we held Escape 2 NH). We spend quite a few weekends there in the winter and I've never seen or heard of anyone needing anything like that.
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JonM

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2003, 12:12:54 pm »

It's a heater that goes over the block of your engine to ensure that your vehicle will start in the morning.

Oh, no. I've never seen those in NH. I live in Southern NH where it is milder, but do have a hunting/snowmobiling camp up in the mountains (close to where we held Escape 2 NH). We spend quite a few weekends there in the winter and I've never seen or heard of anyone needing anything like that.

If I recall correctly, you're more likely to see them on diesel engines than gas engines in climates that are on the edge of needing them.  I hear newer diesel engines are not as bad, but older ones could require a block heater if the temperature was even a couple of degrees below freezing when you tried to start it.
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EMOR

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2003, 02:40:33 pm »

Quote
You make it sound like Wyoming is Siberia with no heaters. Harsh winters my behind.

Then answer this question; When I was stationed at the Sub Base in Groton, CT I saw no block heaters during my time in New England. When I traveled thru WY I saw them all over. Is having a block heater some kind of status symbol in WY?

Outside of the 21 years I spent in the Navy I have lived my entire life here in MI (I am 46). I have never seen a block heater south of the Upper Peninsula. Nobody would confuse MI with Miami Beach in the winter.

Quote
Also using the "it's the economy stupid" is well stupid.

Despite your proven inability to disagree civilly, I will respond to your statement.

Quote
When the government raises taxes and spends like crazy then we have a good economy, example Clinton era. When the government lowers taxes and spends like crazy then we have a bad economy, example Bush era's. The statement should be "we need higher taxes stupid" that would be more appropriate for your line of thinking.

Where did you get all of this? Obviously you have no clue as what I am thinking or else you wouldn't make a statement like that. I am somewhat disappointed to see that you asked for no clarification/elaboration of my stance if you disagreed with anything I said. That's how you have a dialogue, not by flying off the handle and trying to start a flame war when you see a point of disagreement.

You're talking a national effect when you discuss federal taxation, which is what I assume you're doing. I'm talking regional economic differences here. By all of the wealth metrics discussed on other parts of ths web site DE ranks pretty darn high among the 10 candidates. There is no perfect option, so we must focus on what each consider important.

This is going to be a long struggle and I have no problem with advocating the option that will best maximize my financial well-being while I wait for the efforts to bear fruit.

You are welcome to disagree with me, but I expect you to do so with the same level of civility in which I address you if you expect to have a discussion.

To me DE is a slam dunk, with NH running second. I'm still trying to tease out the rest of the options.
If I disagree with you that does not mean I am not being civil. I never called you a name or otherwise. So please keep the discussions to the topic at hand, not personally attacking me and slandering me.
I know NY is famous for people being rude but it looks like it is spreading throughout the east coast.
On a side note I was stationed in Groton also, from 1988-1989.
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Zxcv

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2003, 02:55:22 pm »

In a lot of places you don't absolutely need a block heater, but a lot of people use them because they significantly increase the longevity of your engine. I've got one, and I just live in Oregon.

Diesel engines need more help this way. They typically use heavier oil in the first place, and their higher efficiency means less waste heat to warm up the engine. And you have to worry about your fuel turning to jello, too.   :P  My car is a diesel.

I would say, prevalence of block heaters is not a very good measure of winter temperature. However, winter temperature is.   ;)

Wolverine, I was agreeing with you just fine till you got to this part:
Quote
It is easier to be patient when you have access to the better parts of life, like: a nice paying job, the chance to see your favorite musicians, take a gander at those historical places you've always wanted to see, etc....

There aren't too many spots of our Western choices that have the critical mass of employment, culture, etc... to keep us amused while resting from our libertarian labors.  I know that Anchorage and Boise aren't exactly Podunk, but they pale in comparison to places like Boston, Philly, Baltimore, and DC, agreed?

With this theory in mind, the only two reasonable alternatives are: DE and NH.

Personally, I would not be kept amused in a place like Boston or Philly. I would feel trapped, claustrophobic.

You are making a personal value judgement. You need cities for your diversion, but that does not mean everyone does. When I drove through Wyoming I was amazed and pleased at all the things there were to do. Yes, they are outdoor things, a lot of them - fishing, camping, shooting, hunting, rock-hounding, exploring paleontology and archeology sites, amateur astronomy in those clear skies, going to the gun shows and mountain-man rendezvous they have there, horseback riding, and on and on. Even museums; every little town had one, and there were a lot of historic buildings and sites there. And art galleries, too.

With these sorts of things I enjoy, the prospect of Wilmington, etc. just makes me think, "Ugh!" I lived there once, as a teenager. I thought it excruciatingly boring.

I outgrew that need to "see my favorite musicians" back at that last Led Zeppelin concert in 1971 or so. Anyway, these days my favorites are all dead at least 100 years, but that's no problem as I just throw on a CD!   :)

Comedy clubs? I went to one once. It was amusing to have the guy insult the audience, and trash himself and others, for about 5 minutes. Then I'd had enough.

Fancy restaurants? Yes, they are nice, but for me about a twice a year thing. I have no need to live where restaurants abound.

So, it all depends on point of view, doesn't it?
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Kelton

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2003, 03:16:54 pm »


Personally, I would not be kept amused in a place like Boston or Philly. I would feel trapped, claustrophobic.

. . .

Fancy restaurants? Yes, they are nice, but for me about a twice a year thing. I have no need to live where restaurants abound.

So, it all depends on point of view, doesn't it?

I agree with you there, Zxcv.  My wife and I try out new restaurants at the rate of about 3 per month(nicer ones too).  

Guess what?
A quick glance at Yahoo! Yellow Pages reveals that even in the little city of Cheyenne, WY it is going to take us at least 18 months before we will have tried every restuarant in the area, and that is even if we completely by-pass the fast-food establishments.

--And that's even if we never go to the same one twice!
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EMOR

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2003, 03:18:04 pm »

There aren't too many spots of our Western choices that have the critical mass of employment, culture, etc... to keep us amused while resting from our libertarian labors.  I know that Anchorage and Boise aren't exactly Podunk, but they pale in comparison to places like Boston, Philly, Baltimore, and DC, agreed?

With this theory in mind, the only two reasonable alternatives are: DE and NH.
Last time I checked none of those cities where in DE or NH.   :o
If you are talking in relative close driving distance then you can add Denver and Salt Lake City. Not exactly hick towns.
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wolverine307

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Re:A few thoughts about timelines
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2003, 03:36:51 pm »

Quote
So, it all depends on point of view, doesn't it?

Of course it does. To each of us our own. Your choice of lifestyles is perfectly valid, no more or no less than mine.

As a libertarian, I like choices. When I want the city I like having the choice. When I want the quiet I like the choice. Being out West would limit my ability to have that choice.

Consistently having to go to the rodeo, the bar, hunting, etc... for my recreation would drive me nuts. Once in a while I could handle, but not a steady diet of it.

I remember meeting this guy in the service who was from ID. He claims to have never seen a stoplight before joining the Navy. I'm sorry, but that's way too rural for me. For some it sounds like heaven, for me it is not.

These forums are interesting. I am learning a whole lot more about the various states than I knew before I discovered this forum. We also get to debate the various pros and cons. Personaly, I am taking this vote very seriously. I want the idea to succeed, so I am taking the time to learn all I can about the various places.

From what I've come to learn is that ME is not the end of the world, if it is chosen and neither would ID. I could live in Portland or Boise and get my Civilization Jones met. I could deal with those two choices, if DE or NH doesn't win.

All I intend to do is make people think about the decision they are about to make. Moving to WY, MT, SD, or ND will involve a different lifestyle than the Eastern states. I just want them to think about it carefully and not get so caught up in the activist aspect of it all that they fail to take into account the environment they'd be living.

If at the end of careful consideration, they still opt for some place out West, so be it. I just hope that it's ID for the other choices carry absolutely no interest for me. But that's just me.
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