Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Social and Economic Barriers  (Read 2849 times)

halfspeed

  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Social and Economic Barriers
« on: May 21, 2013, 01:26:43 pm »

I need help in sorting this through.
I have been basically predestined to go to college my entire life, I'm smart, well rounded, and am a white and protestant. My plans for forever were to go to college then move to the FSP. I planned on being a finance/economics major. However, things have changed and I now see college as more or less a racket, a waste of money, and a fantastic way to get 20-40k in debt. I became a devout voluntarist and bury my face in books and libertarian videos religiously, slowly tripping my way down the rabbit hole. I do not want to go to college, and I want to fight with the FSP day and night to free people. I don't want to sit in a 9-5 job at a financial firm lying to people in my cheap suit.
In order for me to go to college where my family wants me to, I have to beg the Federal Government for student aid and loans. I find it dehumanizing and completely contradictory to my beliefs.
But the repercussions may be to great. My parents, grandparents, aunt etc would be DEVASTATED. My mother especially, would not know what to do. Seen as a complete failure in the eyes of my family, I don't know if I could take the guilt of joining. After a while they may get on board and support me, and maybe I'm blowing things out of proportion, but still.
Economically speaking I have good experience in apartment/ home repair and am a solid worker. I love doing video work as well, which is another good fit for the FSP. However, I am 17 and while this forum seems to be all about jobs and how hard and how easy they are to get, I fear not being able to support myself. On the other hand I won't have any debt.
I am not just a hot headed teenager that has rebellion stuck in their brain. I apologize for the rambling and thanks for reading. Here are my basic questions:
1. How do/did you deal with social issues? (ie leaving family behind)
2. Do you think fighting as hard as I want to is worth not going to college?
3. Would I be able to sustain myself?
4. Do you think it's a good idea to move?
5. Would I be a hypocrite for accepting aid from the government?

Edit: more info about me
- No driver's license or car yet
- $2,500 in cash $200 in silver & BTC
- May or may not be going to porc fest
- Turning 18 in August
- Love mountains, the cold, snow, and liberty
- Extreme minimalist
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 01:38:07 pm by halfspeed »
Logged

Liberty603

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 524
  • Mover #586
    • Liberty603.com
Re: Social and Economic Barriers
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2013, 01:45:55 pm »

Welcome!  :)  Great questions... my humble opinions below

1. How do/did you deal with social issues? (ie leaving family behind)
Personally, family is really important to me, and a first priority. Whatever you do, I'd suggest talking it through with them and explaining your reasoning. Maybe they'll understand and maybe they won't. Sincerely listen to and consider what they have to say, even if you ultimately disagree.

2. Do you think fighting as hard as I want to is worth not going to college?
To me, being independent and self-sufficient is a prerequisite to being able to helping promote liberty and helping others be free. Whether or not that involves college is arguable, but either way, I'd suggest building up income and savings.

3. Would I be able to sustain myself?
Likely so, as long as you are hard-working,motivated, and flexible as far as work and living arrangements.

4. Do you think it's a good idea to move?
It's a good idea to seriously consider. I don't recommend anyone jump into it. Do your research, and come visit first! Will you be able to come to PorcFest next month?

5. Would I be a hypocrite for accepting aid from the government?
Depends on what your views are. I'd say that most of us "liberty" people end up accepting aid from the government in one way or another. Personally, I pay a lot of taxes, and I'm happy to get back as much as I can, and happy when others do the same within reason.
Logged
-------------------------------------
Update your address@Porcfest@FreeStateNH  |  New Hampshire Liberty Maps: Liberty603.com | @Liberty_603

time4liberty

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 922
Re: Social and Economic Barriers
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2013, 02:42:35 pm »

I need help in sorting this through.
I have been basically predestined to go to college my entire life, I'm smart, well rounded, and am a white and protestant. My plans for forever were to go to college then move to the FSP. I planned on being a finance/economics major. However, things have changed and I now see college as more or less a racket, a waste of money, and a fantastic way to get 20-40k in debt.

The question to me is, what do you want to do? If you go to college with no idea, putter around for four years, and end up with a degree in greek mythology (no offense to any greek mythology degree holders who may be reading), yes, you've probably wasted as much as 100K or more, and four years, from a career standpoint.

If you want to be a doctor, or a lawyer, many kinds of engineer, or pursue a number of other career paths, it's my opinion that you're going to need a college degree.

If four years allows you to do what you want to do for the rest of your life, and it's the only realistic way to get there, it's worth it.

So, college as the default for people who don't know what they want to do is a very bad idea in my opinion. College for people who go there for a specific purpose to enter a field that requires a degree, makes sense. Of course, it's always an option to take a year off and work/decide, or co to community college and then transfer, etc.

I became a devout voluntarist and bury my face in books and libertarian videos religiously, slowly tripping my way down the rabbit hole. I do not want to go to college, and I want to fight with the FSP day and night to free people. I don't want to sit in a 9-5 job at a financial firm lying to people in my cheap suit.

Well, there aren't many full time activist jobs (if any). So, you're going to need to be gainfully employed, and work for liberty evenings, weekends, etc (or different times, depending on when you work).

Given how much of your life is going to be taken by said job, I recommend that you consider carefully what kind of work you'd like to do, and then figure out how you can make that happen. 40+ hours a week is way, way too much of your life to spend being miserable.

In order for me to go to college where my family wants me to, I have to beg the Federal Government for student aid and loans. I find it dehumanizing and completely contradictory to my beliefs.

We each have our level of comfort, with what level of interaction we'll tolerate with the government. Everyone uses the roads, that I know of -- yet, they are/were paid for with taxes, and in some cases, taken through eminent domain.

I wouldn't take a government job, myself, and especially not one in an industry related to the military (in fact, I quit one for mainly moral reasons) -- but quite a number of FSPers do just that. I don't lecture them or guilt-trip them.

You could argue that the government has taken many thousands of dollars from your parents, and getting some back is not a bad thing.

If you really want to take a hard line on this, and you do need a degree for what you want to do, I recommend that you try to think of ways you can make it happen without taking federal funds. You could go to a cheaper school for a couple years, and transfer. You could work part time, and over the summers. You could take out a private loan. I've heard of some companies paying for a student's education, in exchange for an agreement to work at the company for a certain period of time.

But the repercussions may be to great. My parents, grandparents, aunt etc would be DEVASTATED. My mother especially, would not know what to do. Seen as a complete failure in the eyes of my family, I don't know if I could take the guilt of joining. After a while they may get on board and support me, and maybe I'm blowing things out of proportion, but still.

Try to plan for the long term. If you have a reasoned, well considered plan, and explain that plan to your folks, it's hard to imagine them being angry (if they're like most parents/relatives).

Economically speaking I have good experience in apartment/ home repair and am a solid worker. I love doing video work as well, which is another good fit for the FSP. However, I am 17 and while this forum seems to be all about jobs and how hard and how easy they are to get, I fear not being able to support myself. On the other hand I won't have any debt.

The jobs market is good, but you need to have marketable skills. I don't know much about the video or handiman markets, but I'm guessing that you're not going to be raking it in.

If working on buildings is what you love to do, you might consider what you need to do to get the experience and education needed to be a full-on carpenter, or homebuilder (though, those markets probably aren't so hot at the moment). Electrical and plumbing, from what I can tell, however, seem to be in quite high demand. Or, consider getting into video journalism seriously.

As you can probably tell, I recommend making a career plan to get where you want to be, rather than just trying to scrape by however you can. I believe this will lead to a much happier and less stressful life for yourself.

I am not just a hot headed teenager that has rebellion stuck in their brain. I apologize for the rambling and thanks for reading. Here are my basic questions:
1. How do/did you deal with social issues? (ie leaving family behind)

I'm married -- both my wife and I came, and I get along well with my parents and other relatives. They didn't live where I moved from anyhow, so that's not so much of an issue.

2. Do you think fighting as hard as I want to is worth not going to college?

I think this is a marathon, and not a sprint. My recommendation is to make plans so that you can have a stable, happy life, and work for liberty from a position of strength and influence. What career do you think you'd love to have? What's the best way to get there?

Also, this is not an either/or. There are colleges, etc, in NH.

3. Would I be able to sustain myself?

There always seem to be available jobs at retail and restaurants, but you may not want to be stuck in that situation. There's a big difference between surviving and thriving.

4. Do you think it's a good idea to move?

I love NH. I hope NH fits into your plans, in the long term (perhaps even in the short term!). But, only you can answer this question.

5. Would I be a hypocrite for accepting aid from the government?

I wouldn't say so. I suspect that if your grandparents and parents hadn't been taxed, and the federal government hadn't driven up the prices of school so high, you'd have plenty of money to pay your own way. You could keep track of the amount of monies you receive, and donate an equal amount to charity, at a later date when you can afford it.

I try to avoid interacting with the federal government -- and state government, for that matter. But, I drive on the roads. Why? Because they now control virtually all of them, and it would be practically impossible to live a productive life without using them. I've paid for them through gas tax, and property taxes. If they were to eliminate these taxes, I'd happily pay whatever subscription or tolls (user fees) are necessary to help pay the cost of their maintenance.

If government loans or grants are the only practical way for you to get where you want to be, given the society we live in, I think you should take them.

It's not necessary to boycott all that is not ideal about society, in my view. It's better to focus on exerting the best possible practical effort to improving those issues. Often a boycott is powerful. Other times it's not practicable.

Edit: more info about me
- No driver's license or car yet

That makes commuting tough, unless you live and work right downtown in Nashua, Manchester, or Portsmouth. If possible, I recommend getting a license, even if you end up not using it.

If you go to college in NH and live on campus, it's not as big of an issue, though it still might be convenient.

- $2,500 in cash $200 in silver & BTC

I don't think that's enough of a cushion to move with yet, unless you're going to school/college or have a job lined up.

- May or may not be going to porc fest

Would be cool to have you if you can make it :).

- Love mountains, the cold, snow, and liberty

Sounds like NH ;).
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 02:52:27 pm by time4liberty »
Logged

time4liberty

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 922
Re: Social and Economic Barriers
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2013, 02:53:03 pm »


In short, your parents' plan doesn't need to be your plan. But, you need to have a plan. And I think that plan should including making sure you have a sustainable career path doing something you enjoy.

That may include college or university in NH. It may include college or university somewhere else. It may include a trade school in NH, or elsewhere, or it may include an internship, or job, or apprenticeship, etc, NH or elsewhere. Think about where you want to be in your life/career, and then what you need to do to make it happen.

If you think it through well, and present that plan to your family, I doubt they'll be upset.
Logged

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re: Social and Economic Barriers
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2013, 03:22:09 pm »

Maybe compromise with your family. Agree to live at home, attend community college for 2 years and get an Associates Degree? It's not that expensive and you could work part-time and pay for much of it as your go. Or as was mentioned, a trade school.

Then move to NH once you have your Associates Degree or trade school certificates.
Logged

Sam Adams

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 550
Re: Social and Economic Barriers
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2013, 03:42:27 pm »

Maybe compromise with your family. Agree to live at home, attend community college for 2 years and get an Associates Degree? It's not that expensive and you could work part-time and pay for much of it as your go. Or as was mentioned, a trade school.

Then move to NH once you have your Associates Degree or trade school certificates.
                                Halfspeed, best to think everything out entirely. Come up with a plan and goals and this will help you overcome obstacles. Never get off your goals. Now, if I was 17, and knew  what type of future economy was coming at me[none], I would want to pick up farming skills,greenhouse ideas, welding, building[repair], plumbing,fishfarms, electrical, and solar, water power, animals, marksmanship,reloading,  learn how to save every dollar I could or silver preferred, outdoor skills, cooking, canning, small business start ups, build storage sheds, garden sheds[passive solar], handy man skills,  volunteer activities. The world is at your feet, take it all in, and learn everything you can. Just ask people, college will direct you to one direction, if your not ready for it
Logged

halfspeed

  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Re: Social and Economic Barriers
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2013, 05:10:02 pm »

Thanks you guys. Sorry for being a little melodramatic. I really do need to think this through, but it is difficult because of time and money issues. I also keep seeing too many arrests and simply too much crap the government does that I can't put up with. The current detainment of Adam Kokesh has had a tremendous acceleration with my plans to move. There are a lot of good ideas here, and the options of trade/community schooling are probably the best middle of the road option. I have always loved alternative energy and work until my knees give out everyday. Raking it in is definitely NOT my goal, nor an ideal. I live a very minimalistic lifestyle and don't enjoy physical possessions like most do, although I understand what all of you are saying.
Accepting government aid is (to me) legitimizing it government intervention in the first place. I find it to be very circular and fallacious to think that it's ok or justifiable because my parents paid into it. That's a huge set back for me.
When it comes to my extended family I have very little qualms about completely excommunicating with, although I won't burn the bridge (personal stuff), But not going to college, as I said might completely destroy my mom. I honestly wouldn't be able to move if she couldn't handle it, I like her too much :)
Thanks again guys, sometimes you need to talk to people whose mind isn't currently a nuclear explosion. There's a lot to work on but hopefully I join you guys as soon as I can!
Logged

Sam Adams

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 550
Re: Social and Economic Barriers
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2013, 05:25:47 pm »

Thanks you guys. Sorry for being a little melodramatic. I really do need to think this through, but it is difficult because of time and money issues. I also keep seeing too many arrests and simply too much crap the government does that I can't put up with. The current detainment of Adam Kokesh has had a tremendous acceleration with my plans to move. There are a lot of good ideas here, 

Don,t ever talk to Strangers. Govt works on intimidation and they have scared the majority of fearful Americans.  If you have to learn about encounters by govt servants. Who what when where and how an why?  Have them answer every question and most will because they work for you. Ask for probable cause, why, are you being detained, am I FREE to go, Am I under arrest, under what code, law, they will rather not bother with someone who isn,t scared, intimidated and yellow.  Adam, I think is a plant cia, why else would he plan an armed rally in the only property legally you can,t own a gun or where no-one has Constitutional Rights in America? DC isn,t a state..
Logged

halfspeed

  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Re: Social and Economic Barriers
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2013, 05:47:40 pm »

LOOOLLL... if Adam is a CIA plant then damn their plan backfired. He has done so much for liberty and the man truly opened my mind. I think you are kinda trolling. You can't have a Gun in NYC either, and I'm sure that situation is the same in a lot of US cities. He planned it not to protest the fact that DC has a gun ban, It's to show how ridiculous and silly government really is. And his arrest while probably has a lot to do with his march, I am enraged because he was completely innocent and was targeted for no reason. And if you still believe in Constitutional Rights you are still stuck in the government's paradigm. There aren't and never were Constitutional Rights, there were only natural rights. I appreciate the the advice with dealing with the men in silly costumes, but I am not afraid of them. I want to help  people live as if there is no state and if I do get arrested, I will not cooperate, post bail, or take a plea deal. Nullification is a beautiful thing.
Either way this is way off topic.
Logged

crossonscout

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 815
Re: Social and Economic Barriers
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2013, 09:36:01 pm »

Yeah, family is extremely important to me. Luckily mine are all from NH / New England, so it's not a difficult move for me since I'm still always within driving distance no matter what part of New England I move to. :)

I'd recommend treading carefully, but here's an idea: Why not college in NH? :)

There's lots of great universities and you'd get the best of both worlds. I know some free staters that are attending school and working full time and getting huge tuition payments from the companies they work for by doing so. Might be a smart option for making a living while going to school AND being in the Free State! Best of all worlds. :P

I totally relate to the mom thing though, my mom and I are very close also.

And yeah, I've heard wild claims about Kokesh such as he's backed by the "Muslim Brotherhood" but I don't really give any credence to them because no one can seem to produce any credible sources for their "info" - it's just wild speculation / conspiracy theorizing.
Logged
"When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation…and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act." - Why The Gun is Civilization

time4liberty

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 922
Re: Social and Economic Barriers
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2013, 09:50:26 pm »

Accepting government aid is (to me) legitimizing it government intervention in the first place. I find it to be very circular and fallacious to think that it's ok or justifiable because my parents paid into it. That's a huge set back for me.

I hear you, and I would certainly do my best to avoid it. I've never taken government handouts, and I'd have to be truly on the point of starvation to consider it. I'd certainly go homeless first.

If what you want to do requires college, but you will not take government loans, I bet you can still find a way to make it happen.
Logged

Sam Adams

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 550
Re: Social and Economic Barriers
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2013, 06:16:12 am »

LOOOLLL... if Adam is a CIA plant then damn their plan backfired. He has done so much for liberty and the man truly opened my mind. I think you are kinda trolling. You can't have a Gun in NYC either, and I'm sure that situation is the same in a lot of US cities. He planned it not to protest the fact that DC has a gun ban, It's to show how ridiculous and silly government really is. And his arrest while probably has a lot to do with his march, I am enraged because he was completely innocent and was targeted for no reason.
                    Yes, tread lightly is good advice, anyone can get themselves arrested and rack up thousands of $$ supporting the Bar assoc. Adam has been arrested before, he,s used t it. But to suggest a thousand people follow him in a armed march and everyone lose their right to bear arms for their entire lives is a little immature on his part.,You got me on the Constitution, it gave us no rights, we were born with them. I wouldn,t call you halfspeed, your full-throttle. ;D
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up