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Author Topic: Must new members be 18?  (Read 20175 times)

larry

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2003, 05:04:11 am »

The Board already agreed, several weeks ago, based on a similar situation, that we would not allow members under 18, for all the reasons Jason mentioned.  So it's been discussed, debated, and decided already.  It's not entirely fair, but it's the best consistent solution we could agree upon.  It's not going to change for one person.

So, lizabeth, as I see it, NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE.

IF YOU AIN'T GONNA OVERLOOK THE RULES FOR ONE CLEARLY INTELLIGENT LIBERTY LOVER, WHO HAS PETITIONED YOU,
YOU AIN'T NO LIBERTY LOVER.

I FIND YOU TO BE A RULE ENFORCER.

That's no compliment, Elizabeth!

If "gimmefuel" ain't got a right to vote, no one does.

I could go on, but you would kick me out for my language,
not my age.

libertarian larry

I've alzermers, and I should not be allowed to drive.
But I can vote, and gimmiefuel can not!!!

What sick shit is that???

gimmie fuel,

larry


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schm00

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2003, 08:26:19 am »

IF YOU AIN'T GONNA OVERLOOK THE RULES FOR ONE CLEARLY INTELLIGENT LIBERTY LOVER, WHO HAS PETITIONED YOU,
YOU AIN'T NO LIBERTY LOVER.

You know, there is another viewpoint I see which can be taken here. There is the fact that almost 5000 people have committed themselves to this project with the understanding that only adults over the age of 18 would be allowed to vote on the FSP state. Would it be fair to everyone else to change this requirement mid-stream?

Yes, some might say, but it's only one person. What if it is one vote that decides the state? Would we all be comfortable knowing that the deciding vote came from a 16 year old? Just something to chew on.
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GimmeFuel

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2003, 01:35:54 pm »

You know, there is another viewpoint I see which can be taken here. There is the fact that almost 5000 people have committed themselves to this project with the understanding that only adults over the age of 18 would be allowed to vote on the FSP state. Would it be fair to everyone else to change this requirement mid-stream?

Yes, it would be fair, if they amended the PG. Add something to it, maybe to section 1, to the effect of "Persons of any age may join the FSP." Then, under section 5 of the PG, anyone who doesn't like the change may withdraw their consent.

Yes, some might say, but it's only one person. What if it is one vote that decides the state? Would we all be comfortable knowing that the deciding vote came from a 16 year old? Just something to chew on.

The whole point of democracy is that you allow everyone a vote, even if you don't agree with them or think their decision will not be informed. Larry has said he has Alzheimer's. Would you all be comfortable knowing that his vote might not be cast with his full mental capacity? Should Larry be denied a vote?

Furthurmore, I am really sick of the elitist age discrimination I see here. I will grant you that the average 16 year old is an idiot - I go to a public school, and have to witness their stupidity every day - but I am not an average 16 year old! That much should be obvious from my posting here. Would an average 16 year old care about liberty and the FSP enough to post in this forum demanding my rights?
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Zack Bass

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2003, 01:48:22 pm »



The whole point of democracy is that you allow everyone a vote, even if you don't agree with them or think their decision will not be informed.


Good thing we're aware of the evils of Democracy.

Quote

Larry has said he has Alzheimer's.


He finally admitted it?  I missed that.

Quote

Would an average 16 year old care about liberty and the FSP enough to post in this forum demanding my rights?


Obviously you are more reasonable and thoughtful than a lot of people here.
But you don't actualy in fact have any Rights on this Forum or in this Project.  Neither do I.

Personally, I'd like to have you voting as a Member.  But not if it upsets prior commitments.

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rhull

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2003, 03:32:33 pm »

IF YOU AIN'T GONNA OVERLOOK THE RULES FOR ONE CLEARLY INTELLIGENT LIBERTY LOVER, WHO HAS PETITIONED YOU,
YOU AIN'T NO LIBERTY LOVER.

You know, there is another viewpoint I see which can be taken here. There is the fact that almost 5000 people have committed themselves to this project with the understanding that only adults over the age of 18 would be allowed to vote on the FSP state. Would it be fair to everyone else to change this requirement mid-stream?

That wasn't my understanding when I signed up. I read the PG and the SOI, and joined. I never read the FAQ since I didn't have any questions. I thought both the PG and SOI were very clear and concise. That's why I'm questioning the validity and reasoning of this policy.



Quote
Yes, some might say, but it's only one person. What if it is one vote that decides the state? Would we all be comfortable knowing that the deciding vote came from a 16 year old? Just something to chew on.

Its not going to be just one person. I'm sure this project has quite a few under 18 members. You won't know who they are, because age disclosure=disenfranchisement.

I don't think the ballots will be time/date stamped. So it won't be possible to determine who casts the deciding vote.
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GimmeFuel

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2003, 03:50:14 pm »

You know, there is another viewpoint I see which can be taken here. There is the fact that almost 5000 people have committed themselves to this project with the understanding that only adults over the age of 18 would be allowed to vote on the FSP state. Would it be fair to everyone else to change this requirement mid-stream?

You are mistakenly believing that everyone shares your interpretation of the age guideline. How do you know that everyone who joined did so thinking that minors couldn't vote? For all anyone knows, 4000 of the members could have interpreted "ask you to be at least 18" as a general guideline, not a rule. If the majority of members think minors can vote, is it fair to them to change the rules midstream?

Whatever is decided on the age issue, the PG must be updated to reflect the policy, and all members must be given the chance to withdraw their commitment, per section 5 of the PG.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2003, 03:53:19 pm »

Just arrived in CT.  Some answers, in response (mostly) to Aaron's questions and arguments.

Is this policy a change in the PG?

No.  Everyone here agrees that the "no racists" and "no violent people" clauses do not amend the PG, even though they aren't mentioned therein.

This policy encourages deception.

That's like saying that murder laws encouraging dumping the body.  Yes, perhaps some people will try to get around this rule, but we're trying to catch them, by requiring some kind of verification of identity and a signature.

"We ask that you be 18" is different from "You must be 18."

No.  As Robert says, this is a polite way of saying it, and everyone knows this.  When the stewardess says, "We ask that you fasten your seat belts," she really means, "You must fasten your seat belts."

This policy excludes people who are competent, like GimmeFuel.

Yes, of course, everyone admits this.  But no one's come up with a good way to determine who has competency, other than age.  One suggestion is to have the Board grade essays.  Besides being a waste of our time, it gives us too much power.  One key component of making this vote work is the reduction or elimination of arbitrariness - letting human judgement and human error come in.  Maybe you trust us not to grade a 17 year old low because, say, she's a Montana supporter.  But you shouldn't have to trust us.

The printable version of the SoI is inconsistent with the online version.

I guess so - these printed versions often fall behind the times a bit.  For one thing, we need to get the return address changed on the SoI pronto.  When the FSP started, I know I simply didn't consider the possibility that someone under 18 would want to sign up.  It seemed such a self-evidently bad idea.  So this policy didn't need to be articulated until it became an issue.

Why is it self-evidently bad for someone under 18 to sign up?  Because at this age, your views are changing rapidly.  I think I became a libertarian around age 16 myself, and I know many "converted" at younger ages, but for many others it was age 18 or 19 or 20.  And for many, many others, they rejected libertarianism after they went to college.  I'm sure there are some people out there who did not change their beliefs or life plans drastically during college, but if so, they must have sleep-walked through the experience.  I expect GimmeFuel will be a dramatically different person by the time he is 21.  Will he still be interested in the FSP?  Maybe.  But why take a chance and sign up potentially hundreds of people who will be changing their minds a couple years down the road?

That's the only "in principle" argument I have for an age limit of 18, but I think it's a pretty strong one.  There are also all the practical concerns that have already been touched upon.  And this isn't caused by insensitivity to the plight of teenagers.  I'm young myself, so I well remember my teenage years, and our policy also prevented Tim Condon's daughter from signing up.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2003, 03:59:07 pm by JasonPSorens »
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LeopardPM

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2003, 09:28:05 pm »

Quote

Larry has said he has Alzheimer's.


He finally admitted it?  I missed that.

Luv ya Zack!

re:topic - perhaps the PG was not as well crafted as it needed to be, perhaps the age requirement should have been included directly in the PG - problem is, the ballots have been mailed (80% of them) and it would not be in the interest of the FSP to attempt any sort of change at this point.  Folks, the goal here is to get 20,000 people (activists, voters,freedom lovers) to move to one state.  The idea is that those people will form organizations, political groups, lobbies, etc and significantly change the way freedoms are viewed by that state.  The FSP itself is just a vehicle to help people move, it is NO MORE once either (a) 20,000 members actually move, or (b) time runs out (2011 max I think).  Whatever minor mistakes were made in drafting the PG or whatever does not carry over to what we do in the Free State.  If you think that the FSP or any organization that might be formed in the Free State is perfect, then you are gonna have problems in dealing with what we will be up against once there.  So Jason or someone made a little mistake about either being not clear enough on the age deal or trying to include it altogether.  So what? If GimmeFuels desire for freedom is still with him once he becomes emancipated then he can move to the free state and get to work.  We really don't need an idealogical battle over the prudence of Jason's PG or rules to make this effort work, in fact, I believe it might be a waste of energy and effort.

One problem (arguably) libs have had in the past is that they love to talk, love to try to find that perfect idealogical course BEFORE they take any action.  Jason started an ACTION, whether or not 17 yr olds are allowed to vote in the state choice is soooo far removed from what we are trying to and can accomplish its almost like trying to sabotage us before we even vote!  I can't believe that folks are ready to resign their membership because of this.  Yes, GimmeFuel has alot going for him, yes he would be a valuable asset in the efforts for freedom - but, no, this issue is not worth self-destruction of the FSP (not that I really believe this one issue will divide the FSP in such a manner)

summary: FSP is flawed - but still a viable vehicle for moving 20,000 people. once there we can create organizations which do not age restrict as per our general lib ideals.  LETS GET THERE FIRST!

sorry about the longevity and the yelling,
michael

PS: GimmeFuel - please don't take your denial to vote on the state as anything personal or anything inherently problematic in the final ability of the state choosen to actually become free.  I am an 'Early-mover' and will be setting up shop within 6-9 months after the vote.  If you have the desire still, and when you are legally able, contact me and I will help with the logistics of your move and probably have, at least, a temporary place to set you up.

my email: leopardPM@yahoo.com

my name is Michael

thanks for whoever managed to read my extremely verbose rant....
michael
« Last Edit: August 02, 2003, 09:29:26 pm by LeopardPM »
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KirkTreks

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2003, 10:07:01 pm »

This can only be an issue to those affected by the policy. Any signer who is of age has no grievance. Our commitment on the SoI doesn't give us any right to dictate how such commitments are enforced on a third party, or whether the FSP will accept them from a third party.

The real issue is organizational polity. I've looked over the By-laws.  It matters not one hill of beans what any of us has to say. The board has the final call and the board is self-electing. That can be good. It can be bad.  It is an organization in which none of us has ownership rights, nor any responsibilities, beyond the commitment on the SoI.  Otherwise, the board has no sway over our lives,  and we have none over it.

The intent of the commitment stated on the SoI is central. It is a take it or leave it scenario.

Aaron, if it makes you feel better, cross out the "under 18" phase, I don't see how that is of any relevance. It is a clause not applicable to you anyway.   How can that be a basis for honoring or not honoring your commitment?

GimmeFuel, You'll just have to wait. So, you won't get to vote. You never had any such right. This is a voluntary activity. Every participant including Free State Project, Inc. has to agree to form each contract.

Unfortunately, we are all third parties. This is between you and Free State Project, Inc. which owes you nothing.

And that's the way I see it.

Kirk
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John-Wiltbank

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2003, 12:08:36 pm »

Kirk,

The point isn't that anyone's rights are being violated.  Yes, the FSP board members have no contractual obligation to youth, and neither do the unsigned youth to the board.

Just because an action doesn't make one a criminal against Libertarian principles doesn't mean that the action is the right decision.  I think it would be a heroic gesture to contact everyone(and it would have to be QUICKLY!) to inform of the modification of the PG before the vote, per section 5.

If nothing else, even under the evil government rules, minors CAN sign contracts and do other legally binding things by an "adult" proxy.  We should atleast allow them that.  Gimmefuel could convince a parent(or someone)  that he's serious, then they can sign on his behalf.

John Wiltbank
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KirkTreks

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2003, 05:54:06 pm »

John,

I understand that there is an intellectual argument to support the pro-juvenile position.  Strong rationals abound.  I found the "emancipated" angle particularly persuasive.  However, some posts have exhibited a sense of entitlement to participate in the decision, as if it were a democratic process.

Speaking only for myself, "the point" I took away from the whole thread, was discovering the autonomous nature of Free State Project Inc.  That was all I was trying to share.

So, in line with what you have said, all you have going are strong arguments, because none of us have an "official" voice in the decisions of FSP Inc.

I wonder how many people have registered this concept in their noggin...

Peace,

Kirk
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John-Wiltbank

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2003, 12:43:19 am »

Well, the vote deadline has come and gone, so I think it will be pretty much not possible for GimmeFuel to vote on the state.

Oh well, voting is over-rated.

However, I think we need to revisit the issue now, namely "Must members be 18 to join?"  I will again suggest that if they are competent enough to find the web-site and make the decision, they should be allowed.  An outright ban is not acceptable.  We are the vanguard for freedom, and the youth have no other allies.  Where else can they turn?  The Children's Rights plank was watered down even by the National LP.  We need to stand by our younger brethren.  If we can't even let them into the FSP organization, are we going to stand up for their right to fly planes and own machine guns?  I, for one, am.

Any comments?
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Zack Bass

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2003, 07:00:32 am »



  ... if they are competent enough to find the web-site and make the decision, they should be allowed.  An outright ban is not acceptable.  We are the vanguard for freedom, and the youth have no other allies.  Where else can they turn?  The Children's Rights plank was watered down even by the National LP.  We need to stand by our younger brethren.  If we can't even let them into the FSP organization, are we going to stand up for their right to fly planes and own machine guns?  I, for one, am.


On the other hand, there is a huge contingent of "Parents' Rights" libertarians.  Are you prepared to face the righteous wrath of a libertarian Parent who doesn't want his child to be taken to another State by you?  Not to mention the State "Interference With Custody" and Federal "Mann Act" Laws already in place (remember, we're going to be enabling people to work as Whores in The Free State - see the "Sex Workers" thread).

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empathyonthefence

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2003, 02:37:13 pm »

Well, the vote deadline has come and gone, so I think it will be pretty much not possible for GimmeFuel to vote on the state.

Oh well, voting is over-rated.

However, I think we need to revisit the issue now, namely "Must members be 18 to join?"  I will again suggest that if they are competent enough to find the web-site and make the decision, they should be allowed.  An outright ban is not acceptable.  We are the vanguard for freedom, and the youth have no other allies.  Where else can they turn?  The Children's Rights plank was watered down even by the National LP.  We need to stand by our younger brethren.  If we can't even let them into the FSP organization, are we going to stand up for their right to fly planes and own machine guns?  I, for one, am.

Any comments?

yeah...i think it makes no sense to have an age restriction. anyone who visits the site (or finds out about FSP through some other means), understands the purpose/intent of the project, and makes the conscious decision that s/he wants to join should be allowed to. the ability to think about all of this seriously and decide that it's either a good idea (or a bad one, as the case may be) in and of itself demonstrates the ability to make the decision of whether or not to join. FWIW, the concepts and ideas that are the essence of this project are over most people's heads, both over 18 and under. as far as those who do get it are concerned, what difference does it make if that person is 16 or 66? the point shouldn't be to arbitrarily decide that the 16 year old is somehow less able to decide simply because of his or her chronological age; perhaps this person just happens to be mentally advanced for his or her age. what's wrong with that? the point should be to get everyone who agrees with the cause to join, and it's foolish to sacrifice potential members for the sake of an elitist and fairly arbitrary policy.

not to mention that it's not as if someone who's under 18 is that much more likely to change her mind than an 18 or 19 year old, even though the latter are currently "allowed" to become members. there's really no age at which one can say (with any reasonable degree of certainty) that a person won't change her mind. hey, just look at this project's membership- you've all decided to pick up and move to a completely different state for the sake of an idea! there are probably tons of your fellow adults who think you're just as crazy and flighty as any of you may believe we are (those of us who are under 18).  

the point is, you can't ever tell who's an ideal candidate to make a decision like this and who's not. because of this, it's not fair to rule out anyone. short of interviewing every prospective member and asking for character references, you'll never know who really intends to go through with it or not. having an age policy in place just makes the organization appear rather hypocritical.
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adam86

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Re:Must new members be 18?
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2003, 02:32:32 pm »

I am a 16-year-old male and signed up under "Friend." I am expecting to see membership pick up after the state is announced. Although I agree with most of what GimmeFuel says, now that it is too late for minors to vote, I don't see the point of signing up until age 18 anyway. I will turn 18 11/21/04, and be a Senior in high school. I will probably look at colleges in the Free State, thus aiding in the move from New York State. It is very hard to move without your family before 18 anyway, and the voting age is 18 too. I would like a lower voting age if possible!  :D Until then, I'm anxiously awaiting the announcement.
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