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Author Topic: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire  (Read 15198 times)

kurtis

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Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« on: January 09, 2013, 11:12:28 pm »

I'm posting here because I was just reading (and participating) in a long thread on Facebook. In short, someone was unhappy with the resources the FSP dedicated towards helping movers find jobs. The post was deleted.

That got me thinking about the Barrier to Entry. New Hampshire is not a cheap state. The taxes help a bit, compared to other states in the region, but are only a real significance when you make more money.

For me, the price of property and general living expenses is pretty high when you start looking at populated areas. I've been doing my business for a few years and I can't imagine raising rates high enough. I'm better off looking to work for someone else who is already setup there.

I'm not complaining! I promise. I have a couple of opportunities I'm working on and if they can pay accordingly, I'll have it relatively easy.

I'm just wondering if the barrier of entry to New Hampshire, itself, was considered much when choosing the state (I haven't read the old posts), and if it was considered, was there any solution for the average Joe who wants to see Liberty in their Lifetime? It makes me wonder how the average New Hampshirite makes it by, especially those working minimum wage jobs.

Edit: I think this should be moved to a different sub-forum but I'm not sure if I have the ability/permissions to do it.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 11:24:59 pm by kurtis »
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tortuga

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2013, 08:01:19 am »

Ive read that NH is succumbing to the recession like everywhere else, altho not as badly. Look around, save up before you go, and take a lesser job until you can get settled.

My plan is to save several thousand dollars in FRNs and silver, then get a cheap apartment somewhere in NH, find a job that gets me started, and then look further. I am a good saver, so I should be able to pay rent, food, utilities, and still save, even on $7.25 an hour, which is $1160. I can live on that and save at least $100 a month easily. I also may have some self-employment that could be transferred up there easily.
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MaineShark

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2013, 08:38:36 am »

That got me thinking about the Barrier to Entry. New Hampshire is not a cheap state. The taxes help a bit, compared to other states in the region, but are only a real significance when you make more money.

When I moved back here, I took a $1/hr pay cut.  I had a 40% improvement in cashflow, between lower taxes and specifically moving close to where I would be working, thereby lowering my commuting costs.  And I don't smoke, not drink in large quantities, so the lower taxes on those things didn't impact that.
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plasma1010

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2013, 09:17:03 am »

I'm not finding that to be the case at all, since I am moving within a few days from Long Island, a lot seems to be cheaper in NH compared to here.

Try renting a single room in a decent area for any less then $800 a month around here. Impossible. So I'll be renting for less and making the same amount I did here on Long Island, but without the Income and Sales tax. The other bonus is that I will be working on a farm and getting a lot of free food. Gas was cheaper. I found more options to buy bulk food in NH. More open areas and recreation. Less laws.

For me it's a win-win.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 09:20:15 am by plasma1010 »
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GregSarnowski

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2013, 10:24:23 am »

Compared to the rest of the Northeast and other high-cost areas of the country (like California) the cost of living seems low to me. I did some calculations and figured I can live on ~$1000 a month with some decently careful budgeting (and roommates). Obviously it'd be more if you have a family to take care of.

I can see how it might seem high if you're from certain areas of the south (for instance). But keep in mind that average wages generally take that into account.

As far as the FSP helping people find work, it just doesn't seem viable, considering participants are coming in with widely varying skill-sets, experience, education levels, and goals. But it certainly can't hurt once you arrive to have a group of like-minded people to network with. I know that I'm planning on starting a business after I move (online education related) and I will be happy to consider free staters first and foremost when it comes to hiring, if all else is equal why not?





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Liberty603

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2013, 10:42:28 am »

In most cases, I think it's more "sticker shock" than an actual financial barrier. It can be hard calculate cost of living differences because there are many variables and potential unknowns, but for most situations, if you do the math you should find that increased housing costs are offset by the combination of higher earnings and lower taxes. My general rule is that if you make a decent income and live modestly, you will probably be better off in New Hampshire. If you are on a fixed income/retired, or prefer a home larger/fancier than the average person in your income bracket, the math can work against you.

Yes, there some situations where New Hampshire really does cost more (net) and a bit of compromise can be required. For those on the lower end of the earning scale, one solution is to live with a roommate and split expenses. For others it may mean living in a home with less sq. ft. than they might be able to afford in a less expensive area.

My view is that southern New Hampshire (which is the part of the state where most people live) is expensive because it's a nice place to live. Objectively, if you look at the cheaper places to live across the US, they almost universally have higher unemployment rates, many have higher crime, poorer healthcare, poorer overall quality of life and standards of living. If you are willing to give some of those things up... there are relatively inexpensive places to live right here in New Hampshire, especially if you go north to the more rural parts of the state.

Regarding the thread you mention (which was deleted)... in my opinion, the original poster had a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Free State Project is all about. I'll leave it at that  :)
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kurtis

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2013, 10:45:12 am »

Ive read that NH is succumbing to the recession like everywhere else, altho not as badly. Look around, save up before you go, and take a lesser job until you can get settled.

My plan is to save several thousand dollars in FRNs and silver, then get a cheap apartment somewhere in NH, find a job that gets me started, and then look further. I am a good saver, so I should be able to pay rent, food, utilities, and still save, even on $7.25 an hour, which is $1160. I can live on that and save at least $100 a month easily. I also may have some self-employment that could be transferred up there easily.

You're very optimistic! haha. I think you can definitely do it if you put your mind to it, though. I'm not quite sure about surviving on roughly $1,000 per month after taxes. The reason I say this is because most apartments I've seen, alone, are at least $600 per month for a one bedroom. Then you have to include utilities, the option to eat, and transportation. I suppose it is possible but looking from out of state it's looking extremely tight. Maybe I've just been looking at apartments in the wrong areas?

When I moved back here, I took a $1/hr pay cut.  I had a 40% improvement in cashflow, between lower taxes and specifically moving close to where I would be working, thereby lowering my commuting costs.  And I don't smoke, not drink in large quantities, so the lower taxes on those things didn't impact that.

That is actually a pretty awesome improvement! I did hear that the taxes on Cigarettes are lower; but I think that's a regional thing. As far as I know, they're on par with Ohio which is pretty high compared to the rest of our region (e.g. Kentucky). I don't know what your tax bracket is but I'm surprised to see the State and Local Income taxes making that large of a difference. Is there other taxes I'm missing out on? Maybe I'm just used to living in a really cheap state and didn't even realize it?

I'm not finding that to be the case at all, since I am moving within a few days from Long Island, a lot seems to be cheaper in NH compared to here.

Try renting a single room in a decent area for any less then $800 a month around here. Impossible. So I'll be renting for less and making the same amount I did here on Long Island, but without the Income and Sales tax. The other bonus is that I will be working on a farm and getting a lot of free food. Gas was cheaper. I found more options to buy bulk food in NH. More open areas and recreation. Less laws.

I completely agree with you. NH would be a lot cheaper than certain areas of the country. Especially somewhere like Long Island. However, my concern (not only for myself, but others) is that most people do not live in places like Long Island and may be coming from places, like where I live, where it is much cheaper?

Either way, that sounds like a huge win on your end! From what I've read, New York is no joke. $8 for cigarettes and insane State/Local/Property taxes! The option to buy bulk food was not something I considered since we have a Walmart at practically every highway exit from Toronto to the Southern Tip of Florida following I-75. (btw, I don't shop at Walmart, I just know it's available). I imagine Long Island, particularly, doesn't have the room and there's so many people the demand would be high, thus making the prices higher anyways.

So in your case, and many people like you, it looks like NH is actually a better option. I wonder (rhetorical) what percentage of people live in states more expensive than NH? Maybe NH is the middle-way; half live in cheaper areas and half live in more expensive areas?

Compared to the rest of the Northeast and other high-cost areas of the country (like California) the cost of living seems low to me. I did some calculations and figured I can live on ~$1000 a month with some decently careful budgeting (and roommates). Obviously it'd be more if you have a family to take care of.

I can see how it might seem high if you're from certain areas of the south (for instance). But keep in mind that average wages generally take that into account.

As far as the FSP helping people find work, it just doesn't seem viable, considering participants are coming in with widely varying skill-sets, experience, education levels, and goals. But it certainly can't hurt once you arrive to have a group of like-minded people to network with. I know that I'm planning on starting a business after I move (online education related) and I will be happy to consider free staters first and foremost when it comes to hiring, if all else is equal why not?

Again, I'm not sure on the $1,000 per month budget. I will agree that it is possible, as I believe just about anything is possible if you can find a way. And like they say, where there is a will there is a way. I just haven't ran the numbers on that low of a budget to see it feasible. Of course, like you mentioned, my personal difference is supporting another person (my son). Unless I'm looking at the wrong areas, even a two bedroom apartment is going to run at least $900 so you're looking at $450 per month in rent and giving yourself very little room for living expenses. That doesn't even include being safe by putting back a little bit just in case something happens (it always does).

And I completely agree with you on the FSP not having the resources to find everyone work. That would just be crazy, especially when most people who are part of the FSP haven't even moved yet. I like the idea of starting your business there and giving priority to other Free Staters. I'm not the hiring type but I'd love to help out other Free Staters any way that I can if I decide to move my business instead of simply taking a job with an existing company.

By the way, to anyone who is planning on living on a very tight budget (Let's say $1,500 per month or less), would you mind to show me your actual numbers you're working with? e.g. Gross Income, Net Income, Housing, Transportation, Food, etc. Just a typical "Home Budget". I want to see if I'm neglecting something obvious that makes this feel more feasible to you? Thanks!
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Liberty603

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2013, 11:00:27 am »

However, my concern (not only for myself, but others) is that most people do not live in places like Long Island and may be coming from places, like where I live, where it is much cheaper?
...
I wonder (rhetorical) what percentage of people live in states more expensive than NH? Maybe NH is the middle-way; half live in cheaper areas and half live in more expensive areas?

According to some 2011 Census data I just found:

Median Rent (US): $871
Median Rent (NH): $939

Median Rent as Percentage of Household Income (US): 31.9%
Median Rent as Percentage of Household Income (NH): 30.1%
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MaineShark

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2013, 11:06:05 am »

When I moved back here, I took a $1/hr pay cut.  I had a 40% improvement in cashflow, between lower taxes and specifically moving close to where I would be working, thereby lowering my commuting costs.  And I don't smoke, not drink in large quantities, so the lower taxes on those things didn't impact that.
That is actually a pretty awesome improvement! I did hear that the taxes on Cigarettes are lower; but I think that's a regional thing. As far as I know, they're on par with Ohio which is pretty high compared to the rest of our region (e.g. Kentucky). I don't know what your tax bracket is but I'm surprised to see the State and Local Income taxes making that large of a difference. Is there other taxes I'm missing out on?

Sales tax.  Fuel tax (exists, but is low).  Auto insurance is lower, since they actually have to compete with "I'm not going to pay for any insurance," rather than having a mandatory minimum coverage level (as a result, NH has one of the lowest rates of uninsured drivers, since they can actually afford insurance).
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escapist_reborn

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2013, 11:17:10 am »

Higher rent or cost of living might just be something you have to deal with when living in "nice" places. I loved my time living in both D.C. and France, but everything was expensive. Now I'm in Arizona where everything's all cheap, but I hate it. I'd be willing to put up with higher cost of living in order to have a nice life in some nice New England town.

So, as the saying goes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpc-zAbL2Uw
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kurtis

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2013, 11:31:36 am »

In most cases, I think it's more "sticker shock" than an actual financial barrier. It can be hard calculate cost of living differences because there are many variables and potential unknowns, but for most situations, if you do the math you should find that increased housing costs are offset by the combination of higher earnings and lower taxes. My general rule is that if you make a decent income and live modestly, you will probably be better off in New Hampshire. If you are on a fixed income/retired, or prefer a home larger/fancier than the average person in your income bracket, the math can work against you.

Yeah, I think the "sticker shock" does play a big part in this for me. It seems like many people are comfortable with the change but I don't quite see it, yet. I do like the contrast living on a fixed income vs. making a decent income. Going with typical American values, it does seem like it's a shame to move somewhere "better" and have to sacrifice spending but I believe we'll all have to make that change eventually, anyways.

Quote
Yes, there some situations where New Hampshire really does cost more (net) and a bit of compromise can be required. For those on the lower end of the earning scale, one solution is to live with a roommate and split expenses. For others it may mean living in a home with less sq. ft. than they might be able to afford in a less expensive area.

That sounds like a legitimate way to make the move. I'm not very familiar with New England culture. Is it typical to have room-mates there? Here, some have room-mates but usually only while going to college. Then again, it's easy for someone here earning Minimum Wage to afford a one bedroom apartment alone.

Quote
My view is that southern New Hampshire (which is the part of the state where most people live) is expensive because it's a nice place to live. Objectively, if you look at the cheaper places to live across the US, they almost universally have higher unemployment rates, many have higher crime, poorer healthcare, poorer overall quality of life and standards of living. If you are willing to give some of those things up... there are relatively inexpensive places to live right here in New Hampshire, especially if you go north to the more rural parts of the state.

That is one aspect I haven't thought of. Even though the cost of living may be higher, you essentially get what you pay for. Quality of life is very important and that's not something you can easily just buy your way into in other parts of the country (e.g. Los Angeles).

Quote
Regarding the thread you mention (which was deleted)... in my opinion, the original poster had a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Free State Project is all about. I'll leave it at that  :)

Agreed!

According to some 2011 Census data I just found:

Median Rent (US): $871
Median Rent (NH): $939

Median Rent as Percentage of Household Income (US): 31.9%
Median Rent as Percentage of Household Income (NH): 30.1%

That's good to hear. It looks like NH does sit very close to the average in terms of housing cost. So it's possible that half of the people moving will experience a slightly higher cost of living, half will experience a slightly less cost of living, but for the most part people will experience little change; at least in regards to housing.

Sales tax.  Fuel tax (exists, but is low).  Auto insurance is lower, since they actually have to compete with "I'm not going to pay for any insurance," rather than having a mandatory minimum coverage level (as a result, NH has one of the lowest rates of uninsured drivers, since they can actually afford insurance).

I had to look up the Sales tax rate in New Hampshire. If Google served me correctly, there is no general sales tax (although there is meal, electricity, phone, etc. sales taxes). That's a pretty large savings there assuming little change on the actual price of merchandise in the state. It'd be great buying things on the Internet and not having to worry about adding additional fees ;)

Fuel tax is something I never took into consideration. Another one of those variables in the Sticker Price shock as Turbo mentioned. It looks like New Hampshire imposes 10 cents less per gasoline than my area, which I consider pretty cheap. However, New Hampshire is geographically located in a place that doesn't seem great for the delivery of fuel. I'm attributing that to the cost of fuel being $0.20 more per gallon in NH than Ohio (according to http://gasbuddy.com/GB_Price_List.aspx).

The insurance part is nice! I have to retain insurance for my Auto Loan but I can see the huge benefit of competition in the market. Also, I like the idea of a low rate of uninsured drivers. Here, a lot of people run around uninsured and I'd not be happy (nor financially better) if I got hit by one of them and my insurance refused to cover the costs (I don't know the law there, just agreeing that NH is better in this case).



As a quick comparison, I ran a Cost of Living Calculator I found on Google (http://swz.salary.com/costoflivingwizard/layoutscripts/coll_start.aspx). I don't consider this the de-facto end all answer to all of my questions; but it does shine some light on the subject from my perspective. Comparing my metro region with one of the popular "landing spots" in NH for Free Staters (Manchester), I get the following results:

There is a 30% higher cost of living in the Manchester region. That is a significant increase. They may not take in all of the variables such as taxes into consideration, though.

Luckily, people tend to get paid 8% more there. These numbers aren't proportional. However, I believe Dayton (as a region) has a relatively low average pay so I wouldn't be surprised if 8% is only bringing the pay up to America's average.

Also, comparing Dayton to Manchester may not be comparing Apples to Apples. I don't know. At the very least, I can assure you there's a whole lot less crime in Manchester. Those numbers do little to comfort me so I will keep on digging in to learn more.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 11:38:32 am by kurtis »
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MaineShark

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2013, 11:57:24 am »

I had to look up the Sales tax rate in New Hampshire. If Google served me correctly, there is no general sales tax (although there is meal, electricity, phone, etc. sales taxes).

Correct.

Fuel tax is something I never took into consideration. Another one of those variables in the Sticker Price shock as Turbo mentioned. It looks like New Hampshire imposes 10 cents less per gasoline than my area, which I consider pretty cheap. However, New Hampshire is geographically located in a place that doesn't seem great for the delivery of fuel. I'm attributing that to the cost of fuel being $0.20 more per gallon in NH than Ohio (according to http://gasbuddy.com/GB_Price_List.aspx).

Averages are going to be misleading.  Transporting fuel north of the notches raises the price dramatically, so there's a wide variation in gas prices across NH.

If you're looking into Manchester, for example, you'll find some of the least expensive fuel in NH.  The low-cost stations are charging around $3.25, I think (I don't keep close track of gasoline, since I have a diesel).

The insurance part is nice! I have to retain insurance for my Auto Loan but I can see the huge benefit of competition in the market.

I'd never drive around without insurance, both because I have a loan, and because I don't want the liability (and because my insurance will cover me if I'm hit by an uninsured driver).  I have a commercial policy on my truck with over a million dollars of liability coverage, plus coverage for all of my tools, or any equipment I might be towing, or such, and pay less than folks in neighboring states pay for mandatory-minimum coverage on commuter cars.
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plasma1010

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2013, 12:08:03 pm »

Objectively, if you look at the cheaper places to live across the US, they almost universally have higher unemployment rates, many have higher crime, poorer healthcare, poorer overall quality of life and standards of living. If you are willing to give some of those things up... there are relatively inexpensive places to live right here in New Hampshire, especially if you go north to the more rural parts of the state.



Did you mean NH has inexpensive places to live with "higher unemployment rates, many have higher crime, poorer healthcare, poorer overall quality of life and standards of living" or did you mean that NH overall is a little more expensive, but lacks those aspects overall ?
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freedomroad

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2013, 12:23:54 pm »

That got me thinking about the Barrier to Entry. New Hampshire is not a cheap state.
In my experience, considering the high pay and low cost of goods, it isn't an expensive state either.

Quote
The taxes help a bit, compared to other states in the region, but are only a real significance when you make more money.
Every state has various sales and excise taxes. NH's happen to be near the lowest in the US. This is unrelated to your pay. For example, NH has no general sales tax. NH doesn't tax liquor. NH doesn't tax cigars. NH has the lowest taxes in New England on smoke, gas and beer. There is also property taxes to consider. While property taxes might be a little higher in NH than VT/MA/CT, rent itself isn't much higher and in many case, it quite a bit lower. So, if you are renting and comparing NH to other New England states, property taxes are only a minor consideration, at best. Also, income tax comes out of your check, whether you make $20,000 or $50,000. Of course, not so in NH.

Of course, you can also rent 1-2 rooms of an existing apartment. The FSP has fantastic housing and jobs resources! I cannot say enough good things about them! Check the sig file for the links.

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For me, the price of property and general living expenses is pretty high when you start looking at populated areas. I've been doing my business for a few years and I can't imagine raising rates high enough. I'm better off looking to work for someone else who is already setup there.
General living expenses are lower in NH than other New England states. Though, taxes are a lot less and pay tends to be on par, if not higher. Property? I don't recommend anyone buy property unless the person have lived in NH awhile. I'd give the same advice for anyone moving to any state.

Quote
I'm just wondering if the barrier of entry to New Hampshire, itself, was considered much when choosing the state (I haven't read the old posts), and if it was considered, was there any solution for the average Joe who wants to see Liberty in their Lifetime?
Adults with any skills at all shouldn't be making minimum wage in NH. I'd say near the lowest in the US. People may always rent 1-2 rooms of a house or apartment to start out. The taxes are much lower here than most places. Plus, even if you live in the most dangerous parts of NH, you are still living in above average places for safety, on a national scale. For example, to live in a place as safe as the worst part of Manchester in Atlanta, Memphis, Philly, Chicago, LA, Nashville or St. Louis would be much more expensive than living in the same place in Manchester. So, if you want to live in an urban area but not a complete hell hole, Manchester is CHEAP.

To give you an idea, I know people paying rent of under $250 a month in NH. I know people paying rent of under $300 a month in NH. I know people paying rent of under $350 in NH. It really isn't that hard. It depends on where you are willing to live, how hard you try to find cheap rent and how you are willing to live and who you know.
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kurtis

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Re: Barrier to Entry in New Hampshire
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2013, 12:46:37 pm »

Every state has various sales and excise taxes. NH's happen to be near the lowest in the US. This is unrelated to your pay. For example, NH has no general sales tax. NH doesn't tax liquor. NH doesn't tax cigars. NH has the lowest taxes in New England on smoke, gas and beer. There is also property taxes to consider. While property taxes might be a little higher in NH than VT/MA/CT, rent itself isn't much higher and in many case, it quite a bit lower. So, if you are renting and comparing NH to other New England states, property taxes are only a minor consideration, at best. Also, income tax comes out of your check, whether you make $20,000 or $50,000. Of course, not so in NH.

Yeah, I had no idea about the Sales Taxes before this thread. I imagine that, combined with State/Local income tax, does make quite a good difference assuming people do not charge more for merchandise accordingly. I'm not really comparing NH to the rest of New England, as I'm from Ohio but I can see how regionally it's better. Nationally it does seem somewhat average, although a little surprising.

Quote
To give you an idea, I know people paying rent of under $250 a month in NH. I know people paying rent of under $300 a month in NH. I know people paying rent of under $350 in NH. It really isn't that hard. It depends on where you are willing to live, how hard you try to find cheap rent and how you are willing to live and who you know.

Really? That's amazing. Where do people find rent for this cheap? I'm very interested in seeing this. Everything I've seen is at least $600/month for a 1-bedroom and $900/month for a 2-bedroom. I have seen *some* places that are slightly cheaper but I've also seen many more places which are significantly more expensive ($1200 for a 2 bedroom apartment isn't uncommon)
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