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Author Topic: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?  (Read 12370 times)

kenlee101st

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How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« on: December 12, 2012, 04:19:31 pm »

I am new to these boards and see many people are libertarians and anarchists.  I have been a Republican my whole life and never once considered voting Democrat.  I consider myself a South Park Republican, pro-business, fiscal conservative, social liberal.  I support most libertarian agendas however I do recognize that a strong government is desirable in a world where other nations are not as civil minded as us.

I know many people hate the two party system and view them both as the same, but I view the Republicans are no where as bad as Democrats in general.

Anyways, just want to get a general feeling of how people feel about Republicans is all.
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dalebert

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2012, 04:32:20 pm »

I have been where you are now so I am inclined to be patient. ;)

Bazil

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2012, 04:34:00 pm »

At least half (probably more) of the freestaters at least started where you are.  It's a longer road to get there from the other side of the isle so I think fewer people started out as Democrats.  Lots Republicans are socially liberal and tend to side with libertarians.  Where they differ big time is foreign policy.  So it's only one obstacle for many republicans.  Foreign policy is pretty much moot on the level of the FSP since NH is a state and not a nation.  Democrats have bigger obstacles, nanny statism and socialism.  Though many agree with libertarians on foreign policy and social issues (although split on social issues just like Reps).  So Democrats are only half way there at best while many Republicans are already 3/4ths the way there.  Don't let heated discussions on here scare you away (I've gotten in to quite a few myself).  As long as your goal is to increase freedom in the state of NH I think the other freestaters will like you regardless of which side of the isle you came from.
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MaineShark

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2012, 05:02:13 pm »

I know many people hate the two party system and view them both as the same, but I view the Republicans are no where as bad as Democrats in general.

Anyways, just want to get a general feeling of how people feel about Republicans is all.

There's zero difference between the GOP and the DNC.  They support exactly the same agenda.  There may be some individuals in either party who are better or worse, but the parties as a whole are utterly identical.

Democrats are just as pro-war as Republicans.  Republicans are just as anti-gun as Democrats.  Democrats are just as supportive of war on some drugs as Republicans.  Republicans are just as socialist as Democrats.

They use different rhetoric, but their actual records are identical.
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time4liberty

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2012, 05:21:22 pm »

To answer your title question (for myself): It depends heavily on the republican. Almost all of the very most pro-liberty state-reps in NH are republicans. But, there are also many anti-liberty republicans, who I would not vote for.

It's not about party, to me, but about issues and principles.

I've been where you sound like you are, however -- I used to view the republican party as the "good guys".

I am new to these boards and see many people are libertarians and anarchists.  I have been a Republican my whole life and never once considered voting Democrat.

Do you mean for president? I've been registered republican my whole life, but I haven't voted for a R for president, in the general, since '04 (and deeply regret that vote). I would never vote for candidates like McCain or Romney. They favor bigger government on just about every front, and are really indistinguishable from their opponents in terms of actual record and policy positions (empty rhetoric aside).

In the last election, for example, both candidates supported the PATRIOT act/warrantless wiretaps, NDAA/extrajudicial killings/indefinite detention, FED control of monetary policy, gun "control" (Romney supported the Brady bill, "assault" weapons ban, got a D- from GOA), both support foreign interventionism/war, foreign "aid", both oppose significant spending cuts (Romney even saying, Keynesian style, that cuts in government spending would "remove money from the economy"), both support federal government control of heathcare and education, both support Bailouts/TARP and "stimulus", etc.

 I consider myself a South Park Republican, pro-business, fiscal conservative, social liberal.

I'm not sure what "South Park Republican" means, exactly, but I agree with the rest of your description (so long as "pro-business" means "pro free-market" rather than "pro-subsidies/favoritism/protectionism")

 I support most libertarian agendas however I do recognize that a strong government is desirable in a world where other nations are not as civil minded as us.

What do you mean by "strong government" exactly? Do you mean the military?

I know many people hate the two party system and view them both as the same, but I view the Republicans are no where as bad as Democrats in general.

Again, I think it really depends. I think they are absolutely just as bad on the national level. Republican legislatures and presidents have increased spending as much if not more than Democrats, and have done as much or more to undermine civil liberties as well.

In the NH state house, however, I certainly would take the average republican over the average democrat (though there are exceptions).

Anyways, just want to get a general feeling of how people feel about Republicans is all.

For me, to sum my perspective up, party labels don't matter at all. Whether you run as a republican or a democrat I'm going to decide whether to vote and campaign for you based on your positions (and record, if it exists).

All of the candidates I donated to and campaigned for in the last election were republicans, but many (probably most) republicans, I would not support. I didn't vote for a republican for any federal office.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 05:29:16 pm by time4liberty »
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freedomroad

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2012, 06:14:17 pm »

I am new to these boards and see many people are libertarians and anarchists.  I have been a Republican my whole life and never once considered voting Democrat.  I consider myself a South Park Republican, pro-business, fiscal conservative, social liberal.  I support most libertarian agendas however I do recognize that a strong government is desirable in a world where other nations are not as civil minded as us.
There isn't any conflict in being a libertarian and a Republican. In fact, it is very common in NH. Maybe 100 free staters have been elected in NH. Out of those 100, most were in non-partisan races. However, out of the races that were partisan, the vast majority were elected as Republicans.

Since I can't really influence national or international politics, I don't spend much time dealing with it and don't care much about how people feel about it. I've helped stop bad laws and pass good laws in NH. I know I can influence NH politics so I mostly stick with that. I look at it this way.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer

Quote
I know many people hate the two party system and view them both as the same, but I view the Republicans are no where as bad as Democrats in general.
In my life, I've found that there are more liberty minded Republicans than Democrats but I know quite a few liberty minded, elected Democrats in NH.
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kenlee101st

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2012, 08:29:46 pm »

Pretty much strong government I mean a strong military since I am a vet.  Having a standing army is one of the few.. the few responsibilities directly declared in the Constitution, the rest of the functions the Congress does is to fluff up their existence so they can tell their constituents back home, hey look at me, I am a good politician, look at all the laws I passed.  My ideal politician would sit there and make few laws... few but thoughtful and very important laws and spent the rest of the time cutting out all the bad un-constitutional laws our Supreme Court did not have the time to weed out.
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MaineShark

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2012, 09:29:56 pm »

Pretty much strong government I mean a strong military since I am a vet.  Having a standing army is one of the few.. the few responsibilities directly declared in the Constitution...

Actually, the Constitution claims to prohibit a standing army, unless expressly re-authorized every two years (which, supposedly, would not happen without actual cause).

Standing armies are strongly anti-liberty.  Their only use is offense; militias are defensive.
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

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kenlee101st

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2012, 10:25:43 pm »

Pretty much strong government I mean a strong military since I am a vet.  Having a standing army is one of the few.. the few responsibilities directly declared in the Constitution...

Actually, the Constitution claims to prohibit a standing army, unless expressly re-authorized every two years (which, supposedly, would not happen without actual cause).

Standing armies are strongly anti-liberty.  Their only use is offense; militias are defensive.

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

It looks like it is a budgeting thing?  It says the approriation of money, as long as a new budget for the Pentagon is drafted every two years at the minimum then it should be fine.  Also it says nothing about limits on maintaining a navy so technically we can keep that forever with marines  ;D

It doesn't mention anything about an air force either, how many americans would want us to dismantle our air force?

I tried to read the Constitution as close to the bone as I can while trying to keep modern society in prospective.  If we had a strict interpretation than the Bill of Rights would be meaningless since it only restricts the Federal Government leaving us at the mercy of the states.  The few good thing liberal Judges have done is incorporate fundamental rights ensuring that we have freedoms against blatant stupid power grabs.
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MaineShark

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2012, 10:48:27 pm »

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

It looks like it is a budgeting thing?  It says the approriation of money, as long as a new budget for the Pentagon is drafted every two years at the minimum then it should be fine.

Read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers, for some background on intent.

It doesn't mention anything about an air force either, how many americans would want us to dismantle our air force?

I don't see any need to blow up children in other countries, so I think it would be a good idea.  If you want fancy planes, pay for them yourself.  And don't blow up innocent children with them.

I tried to read the Constitution as close to the bone as I can while trying to keep modern society in prospective.  If we had a strict interpretation than the Bill of Rights would be meaningless since it only restricts the Federal Government leaving us at the mercy of the states.  The few good thing liberal Judges have done is incorporate fundamental rights ensuring that we have freedoms against blatant stupid power grabs.

The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the States obey the BoR.
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

time4liberty

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2012, 01:23:11 am »

Pretty much strong government I mean a strong military since I am a vet.

Personally, I prefer well organized militias, which are actually the constitutional approach, as well as (imo) being far, far less prone to misuse/adventurism, far, far less prone to corruption/largess/waste on suppliers, as well as far less overhead.

1. The power is kept in the hands of the people themselves.
2. Arbitrary, often aggressive military actions cannot be taken at the behest of a few politicians -- likely people would only choose to risk their own lives and property on truly defensive actions (e.g. stopping an invasion of NY).
3. There is no massive overhead. The majority of persons making up the body of the militia are otherwise productively employed.
4. There is nobody for military contractors to lobby for sweetheart deals, and masses of taxpayer cash. Rather, suppliers must compete on price and quality for local community dollars.
5 (perhaps most important to me). The right of conscience is respected, and property rights are respected. Those opposed to a particular war or action (as well as overall pacifists) are not forced to finance it, or fight in it, on threat of jail.
6. Militias enjoying a degree of independence provide a huge tactical and strategic advantage over centrally commanded armies, given similar resources and manpower -- for many of the same reasons that free markets outperform centrally planned ones. The vastly outfinanced/outorganized american rebels defeated the British Empire (the most powerful military on earth at the time). A few groups of tribesmen in Afghanistan brought what was perhaps the most powerful military in the world at that time (USSR) to a grinding halt -- and they're giving the US military all they can handle too.

Let me say that while I do take a dim view of the overall use/behavior of the US military after WW2, I consider many individual vets to be among my closest friends and allies. They speak extremely powerfully on these topics -- more powerfully than I can. I certainly wouldn't hold it against you for being a vet, and I don't think anyone else would either.

I would take exception to support for aggressive, "preventative" wars, however, whether by a vet or otherwise.

My ideal politician would sit there and make few laws... few but thoughtful and very important laws and spent the rest of the time cutting out all the bad un-constitutional laws our Supreme Court did not have the time to weed out.

I agree with this ... really I think the only laws needed are quite simple: Don't use or threaten aggressive force against other people, or their property. Follow contracts, and don't commit fraud. These simple standards encompass laws/rules against murder, theft, arson, vandalism, rape, fraud, embezzlement, fraud, kidnapping, breach of contract, extortion, etc.

To me, no additional laws are needed. Most especially, additional laws which themselves violate these standards are unjust and unwelcome -- which includes a great deal of US code. For example, the income tax, which amounts to the statement, "if you don't send us money, we will send armed men to your door to take you by force and lock you up in a jail, and take your house". If this kind of act were committed by an average person, it would constitute extortion, criminal threatening (of kidnapping), theft, etc. Yet, we imagine that if this kind of behavior is committed by people calling themselves politicians, or supported by a large enough group of people, it magically becomes ok.

I think the personal standards for decent behavior, which most of us abide by on a routine basis (don't steal, murder, etc), are generally quite good. I just think they should be applied consistently.

This is just my perspective, and it's certainly not as if everyone has to agree with it to be in the FSP. If you agree with the statement of intent, you're welcome! Also, I've held all of the opinions you've expressed, in the past, so I hope I don't sound too harsh here. I don't intend to be on any sort of high horse, just to share my viewpoint.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 02:00:48 am by time4liberty »
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crossonscout

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2012, 04:12:02 am »

Welcome! I'm also a vet and I used to be a hardcore republican.

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John Edward Mercier

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2012, 02:36:16 pm »

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

It looks like it is a budgeting thing?  It says the approriation of money, as long as a new budget for the Pentagon is drafted every two years at the minimum then it should be fine.

Read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers, for some background on intent.

It doesn't mention anything about an air force either, how many americans would want us to dismantle our air force?

I don't see any need to blow up children in other countries, so I think it would be a good idea.  If you want fancy planes, pay for them yourself.  And don't blow up innocent children with them.

I tried to read the Constitution as close to the bone as I can while trying to keep modern society in prospective.  If we had a strict interpretation than the Bill of Rights would be meaningless since it only restricts the Federal Government leaving us at the mercy of the states.  The few good thing liberal Judges have done is incorporate fundamental rights ensuring that we have freedoms against blatant stupid power grabs.

The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the States obey the BoR.
The Federalists and Anti-federalist papers being written by only a small collective have no power.
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TJames

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2012, 02:44:27 pm »

I don't care about a person's party. Their political views matter to me because I'll form stronger bonds with people who live by the non-aggression principle. I used to be a minarchist and I'd argue with some here, but these helped me https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=law+without+government&oq=law+without+&gs_l=hp.1.1.0l4.1284.6066.0.7701.12.7.0.5.5.0.258.757.6j0j1.7.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.c2waHIek744&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355272958,d.dmQ&fp=a4c8b75673a55156&bpcl=39942515&biw=1920&bih=947
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kenlee101st

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Re: How do Free Staters feel about Republicans?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2012, 03:10:07 pm »

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

It looks like it is a budgeting thing?  It says the approriation of money, as long as a new budget for the Pentagon is drafted every two years at the minimum then it should be fine.

Read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers, for some background on intent.

It doesn't mention anything about an air force either, how many americans would want us to dismantle our air force?

I don't see any need to blow up children in other countries, so I think it would be a good idea.  If you want fancy planes, pay for them yourself.  And don't blow up innocent children with them.

I tried to read the Constitution as close to the bone as I can while trying to keep modern society in prospective.  If we had a strict interpretation than the Bill of Rights would be meaningless since it only restricts the Federal Government leaving us at the mercy of the states.  The few good thing liberal Judges have done is incorporate fundamental rights ensuring that we have freedoms against blatant stupid power grabs.

The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the States obey the BoR.

I love this forum, it has so many different views I have yet to run into. 

No where in the Fourteenth Amendment does it say that the States must obey the BoR or any of the 10 amendments mentioned thereof.  In fact it was a very slow and painful process that we have gotten as much out of the 14th as we have.  It was through very slow process of "incorporation".  It was not only recently that the 2nd Amendment became a "fundamental right" and as of yet, not all 10 of the BoR has been incorporated into the States.  It through the "due process" clause in the 14th which they linked it to the 5th Amendment's due process that we even remotely have as many rights as we do.

Also I am shocked that you would mention that our Air Force is used solely to or even primarily to blow up children in other countries.  That is something I have to deal with in NYC in regards to gun ownership.  They don't see why I need a gun because they do no wish to be shot.  They see no need for United States Citizens to own guns what so ever because their sole purpose is to maim and kill, especially school children.

We can disagree on friendly terms the need to have a strong military or whether a militia is suffice.  I agree that in one point in time a militia is enough but today is a different world.  Even if we as a citizen militia could be afforded the "right" to puchase a stealth fighter, the logisitics, training, and sheer cost would make it impractical.  I see no reason to handicap this nation to just a militia when other nations would have a full standing army.

You should read Six Frigates, the Epic Founding of the U.S. Navy.   It highlights how the dovish Thomas Jefferson who wanted nothing to do with standing Navy relented and sent our Navy to fight off the Barbary pirates.  I can see how not everyone would want a fancy navy.  I am sure you can find dissenters, but enough people in the United States were hurting, especially the farmers which warranted action.

The primary reason I am joining the FSP is because of love of country, and how I see the country is being rotted from within by the entitlements.  When I say strong government, I recognize the strength of our government comes from the strength of its citizenry.  When they grow apathetic, the country will soon collapse.  I see New Hampshire as a small fort in which we can show a better alternative.
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