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Author Topic: A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member  (Read 15821 times)

Amazing Alfredo

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A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« on: July 22, 2003, 09:10:33 am »

What if the whole thing turns into a fiasco? It could come up 500 (or 100 or less) members short of 20,000 after getting a lot of attention and becoming high-profile. We could go there and accomplish nothing. We could start a boom, and then everything will go bust (especially if it's Wyoming, which has a history of that), and then they'd blame liberty.

There are two things I don't ever want to support, even indirectly: legal abortion and gay marriage. If the Supreme Court finally overturns Roe vs. Wade, I want abortion illegal immediately, and I don't want my participation encouraging a bunch of pro-abortion types to move into a state that might otherwise do the right thing. As for gay marriage, I'd like to see the government out of the marriage business altogether, and it certainly has no business giving gays a marriage license to wave in Chistian's faces.
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lloydbob1

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2003, 09:23:46 am »

Amazing,
I don't think 100, 200 or even a couple of thousand people short of 20,000 people in the Freestate will make a difference in the effectiveness of our mission.  Besides, there are millions of libertarians in the US.  I'm sure in time we will realize many more than the proposed 20,000.
You will not have to have anything to do with any abortion or Gay marriages because in a Freestate( or any state for that matter) somebody elses abortion or marriage will be none of your business.
Lloyd
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MajesticLeo

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2003, 09:40:42 am »

I don't want my participation encouraging a bunch of pro-abortion types to move into a state that might otherwise do the right thing. As for gay marriage, I'd like to see the government out of the marriage business altogether, and it certainly has no business giving gays a marriage license to wave in Chistian's faces.

Lloydbob is right.  What other people choose to do is not your concern unless it directly affects your rights as an individual.  

I think you may be missing the point of this whole exercise; Personal freedom and personal responsibility.  This does not mean forcing anyone's ideas of "the right thing" on everyone else, because there are a multitude of ideas on what is "the right thing".  

Personal freedom implies personal choice and on the abortion issue EVERYONE is Pro-Choice, just some people want everyone else to conform to their choice as to what is "the right thing".  In a free state, everyone has the freedom to make their own choices and the duty to take responsibility for that choice whatever it is, in whatever field the choice may be.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2003, 09:49:32 am »

If we're just a few hundred short of 20,000 as of Sept. 2006, we'll keep recruiting until we get there.  The deadline isn't set in stone.  However, indications are that we will get to 20,000 quite easily, probably by the end of 2005.

What if we don't achieve political success?  Well, there are no guarantees in life.  We might not achieve significant political success, but I'd say the FSP is our best chance.

Regarding abortion, we have different views in the group.  Some want most abortions banned, some want most abortions legal.  Everyone (that I've seen) agrees that the issue should be a state one, and that Roe v Wade was bad law, but since it isn't a state issue, we won't be dealing with it in the interim.  If you're totally against cooperating with freedom-loving pro-choicers on the 99% of issues not having to do with abortion, then you're not likely to get much accomplished, and the FSP may not be for you.  The same goes for pro-choicers who won't work with freedom-friendly pro-lifers.

Everyone here wants to get government out of marriage rather than redefining marriage according to the latest standard of political correctness.  You can find some discussions in the "General Libertarian Discussion" forum about how this can be done.

Welcome to the forum!  And I hope you decide to join forces with us.
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Amazing Alfredo

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2003, 10:25:06 am »

MajesticLeo;

Lloydbob is right.  What other people choose to do is not your concern unless it directly affects your rights as an individual.

So if A chooses to rape and murder B, it's none of my concern, nor is it any concern of the police or courts, since it didn't directly affect my own personal rights as an individual, nor their's, just B's rights. But now she'd dead, so I guess A goes free. Unless you think her defense agency should ride in, which is possible since anarchism is the only political philosophy consistent with your statement. But I'm not an anarchist, so I disagree.

I think you may be missing the point of this whole exercise; Personal freedom and personal responsibility.  This does not mean forcing anyone's ideas of "the right thing" on everyone else, because there are a multitude of ideas on what is "the right thing".

The non-initiation of force principle, or the right to life, liberty, and property, is someone's idea of "the right thing". Would you force it on everyone else? I would. And it is force that we're talking about. A will not respect B's rights voluntarily. Even if she herself is armed and provides her own defense, A is coerced into leaving her alone. As he should be.

Relativism is inconsistent with libertarianism. And itself, for that matter.

Personal freedom implies personal choice and on the abortion issue EVERYONE is Pro-Choice, just some people want everyone else to conform to their choice as to what is "the right thing".

Personal freedom implies personal choice and on the murder issue EVERYONE is Pro-Choice, just some people want everyone else to conform to their choice as to what is "the right thing". And I'm one of them.

You'll probably object to my substitution of "murder" for "abortion". But I think abortion is a form of murder, so it really is the murder issue. And if the unborn baby is a separate human life, clearly I'm right. So it comes back down to when life begins, which has always been the fundamental issue.

In a free state, everyone has the freedom to make their own choices and the duty to take responsibility for that choice whatever it is, in whatever field the choice may be.

If you choose to murder someone, what should that responsibility look like?
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Amazing Alfredo

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2003, 10:34:50 am »

If we're just a few hundred short of 20,000 as of Sept. 2006, we'll keep recruiting until we get there.  The deadline isn't set in stone.  However, indications are that we will get to 20,000 quite easily, probably by the end of 2005.

What if we don't achieve political success?  Well, there are no guarantees in life.  We might not achieve significant political success, but I'd say the FSP is our best chance.

Regarding abortion, we have different views in the group.  Some want most abortions banned, some want most abortions legal.  Everyone (that I've seen) agrees that the issue should be a state one, and that Roe v Wade was bad law, but since it isn't a state issue, we won't be dealing with it in the interim.  If you're totally against cooperating with freedom-loving pro-choicers on the 99% of issues not having to do with abortion, then you're not likely to get much accomplished, and the FSP may not be for you.  The same goes for pro-choicers who won't work with freedom-friendly pro-lifers.

Everyone here wants to get government out of marriage rather than redefining marriage according to the latest standard of political correctness.  You can find some discussions in the "General Libertarian Discussion" forum about how this can be done.

Welcome to the forum!  And I hope you decide to join forces with us.

It's not their being pro-choice I object to, it's the possibility they might win on the issue. Depending on the state, I suppose, the natives will keep that from happening.

I'm still not sure about the fiasco thing. I'll mull it over.
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LeopardPM

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2003, 11:24:48 am »

interesting...

well, re: abortion - take a look at the abortion threads under family etc - you will see both sides presented, this issue is just as hotly debated within the FSP as it is in the general public....

You said that you would not support the FSP in any way if it supported Abortion (by legalizing it) or gay marriage.  Abortion is currently legal in your own state, so are you worse off if that were to continue in the free state - I believe this is a federal issue anyways, isn't it?  Gay marriage - it is agreed that it will be legal, AND, that hopefully we can get the government out of the marriage business totally.  BTW: why do you care if a gay person waves his/her license in your face?  they are just advertising or excercising free speech - ignore them - as you might do if you saw a billboard encouraging you to vote for someone you didn't like.  I think you have deeper reasons than just the 'face waving' that you are against... what aree these?
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Amazing Alfredo

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2003, 12:07:26 pm »

LeopardPM;

Abortion is currently legal in your own state, so are you worse off if that were to continue in the free state - I believe this is a federal issue anyways, isn't it?

Under the Constitution, it's very much a state issue. If the FSP ends up keeping it legal in a state where it would have been banned, the babies who get killed will be a lot worse off.

Gay marriage - it is agreed that it will be legal, AND, that hopefully we can get the government out of the marriage business totally.

I see. If you can't get the government out altogether, you'll settle for having the state officially endorse an abomination. Feh.

BTW: why do you care if a gay person waves his/her license in your face?  they are just advertising or excercising free speech - ignore them - as you might do if you saw a billboard encouraging you to vote for someone you didn't like.

In the first place, processing and awarding a marriage license is done with my money as a taxpayer. In the second place, it represents official sanction, presuming to speak on behalf of the people, for acts I regard as grossly immoral.

Would you call it nothing but free speech, and just ignore it, if the government used your money to pay for a billboard condemning homosexuality? Thought so.

I think you have deeper reasons than just the 'face waving' that you are against... what aree these?

I'm secretly a homosexual. I'm also secretly a cannibal, which is why I don't like cannibalism.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2003, 12:10:51 pm by Amazing Alfredo »
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Zack Bass

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2003, 12:17:14 pm »


Gay marriage - it is agreed that it will be legal, AND, that hopefully we can get the government out of the marriage business totally.

I see. If you can't get the government out altogether, you'll settle for having the state officially endorse an abomination. Feh.


I gotta go with Alf here.  Same goes for Medical Marijuana.

Quote

BTW: why do you care if a gay person waves his/her license in your face?  they are just advertising or excercising free speech - ignore them - as you might do if you saw a billboard encouraging you to vote for someone you didn't like.

In the first place, processing and awarding a marriage license is done with my money as a taxpayer. In the second place, it represents official sanction, presuming to speak on behalf of the people, for acts I regard as grossly immoral.


Again, Alf rules.  Just like those manger scenes, and the Boise Cross.

I have a strong feeling that I probably disagree with most of what you stand for, but you're doing great so far.

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onyx_goddess

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2003, 12:19:47 pm »

Alfredo, I too am not eager to live in a state where the streets flow with abortion-blood, while homosexually married couples dance in it up to their ankles.

However, I'd propose an alternate reality to what might happen in the free state.

Abortion - because this is a hotly contested issue within the FSP, I would suspect that it won't become one of our flagship issues.  In other words, why waste our effort on an issue that we might be split 50/50 on.  So, I don't think you really need to worry about the FSP fostering additional abortions.

Homosexual Marriage - because libertarians are against the government regulation of marriage, it is a step BACKWARDS to promote the additional regulations for homosexual marriage.  For that reason, I think this too will not be a flagship issue, and so you won't have to worry about it getting pushed by libertarians in the free state.

So, imagine instead, all the free staters working towards all the things we agree on that are main-stream, solid libertarian issues.

Here are things I care about:

- Let me homeschool my 3 kids without ANY government interference
- Stop taxing me for unproven social programs
- Stop scaring me with nanny laws
- Stop wasting tax $ on prosecutions/imprisonment for victimless crimes
- Let us arm ourselves and shoot stray dogs that try and bite my children

I think if we focus on things we all agree on, and things that will immediately improve everyone's lives, we'll find we all have enough in common to make it worthwhile.
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MajesticLeo

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2003, 12:25:33 pm »

Amazing,

Well, I never said I was a Libertarian........certainly not an anarchist, guess I must be a vile Republican or something like that. ;D  Anarchy cannot exist by virtue of the fact that people exist in the world who will take advantage of anyone they can; therefore the strong will form a dictatorship if nothing else.  

I view murder as a violation of my right to be secure in my neighborhood, whether I or my neighbor is the victim, and I will initiate force to prevent either.  

I don't object to you substituting murder for abortion in my statement.  Although they are two completely different issues, the formulation of the statement is still correct.

The "responsibility" for committing murder or any other capitol offense would take the form of accepting the consequences that it would result in my death too.

Aw the "immoral" argument again, against homosexuality this time. Sigh.  Well, there is a whole thread on that and it ends up every time being one's opinion as to what is "immoral" and what is not, and on what you choose to base that opinion.

Personally your religion and/or belief system is your own business and will govern how you choose to live, as whatever belief system each of us uses does.  However, that should not mean we cannot work together toward the goal of personal freedom.  This also implies freedom of non-association, so feel free not to associate with me or anyone else with whom you disagree.  But the overall goal is the important thing here.  IMHO

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LeopardPM

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2003, 03:32:25 pm »

sorry - didn't make myself clear here -

First off, considering marriage "as a legal contract", it should be legal for all who are able to enter into ANY other contract.  The problem is that marriage allows the parties involved to be treated differently in the eyes of the government for taxation purposesm etc - this is what needs to be stopped.  While we still have taxes, tax everyone as individuals with no benefit or penalty to those who are in a variety of differing contracts - they are still individuals.  That status doesn't no matter what contracts they have entered into.

I never stated that I wanted the State to PAY for any licensing - this is a cost that should be borne by whomever needs whatever type of license - as long as we have licensing - so, no, I do not promote the government taking your money to promote whatever it may be that you are against.

If you think that you will ever be able to legislate morality, esp your own personal morality - I believe you will always be unhappy.  To give the governement that kind of power implies that others can do so as well, and others' morality could be quite different than your own. - best to get the government out of legislating in general... save the moral issues of actions to the individuals and their religious affiliations. (ie: whether or not gays prancing around in abortion blood is an abomination is up to God to decide, and he will, I am sure) - The big sticking point is whether abortion = murder... that is the crux of that issue and our country is split 50/50 which I would interpret as a reason that individual states could decide either way..

Re: Abortion -
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lloydbob1

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2003, 04:23:56 pm »

Amazing,
If I can stop a murder or catch a murderer, I will, of course, do so.  The next victim might be me and it is generally bad to have a murderer around.
If I choose to have an abortion it will be the result of a contract between me and whoever performs the abortion. I might even do it myself and avoid the middleman, although as a 55 year old male, I don't forsee the likleyhood of this happening.
In any case it would be in a privite place, impossible for YOU to POLICE!  

Jason,
I disagree.  There are many forms of personal behavior that are not the business of the Feds OR any individual state.
Lloyd
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pghpat26

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2003, 05:07:31 pm »

LeopardPM;


In the first place, processing and awarding a marriage license is done with my money as a taxpayer.
        I dont know what state you live in alfredo but my state you pay for your marriage license. If it were being paid by, as you say tax payer money, it would be free, correct? When i set up shop in the free state if someone like you comes onto my property, you're gonna wish you hadnt. I dont want this guy as my neighbor. Religious nuts not allowed on my property.
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Amazing Alfredo

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Re:A Few Concerns From a Prospective Member
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2003, 12:57:56 am »

LeopardPM;

If you think that you will ever be able to legislate morality, esp your own personal morality - I believe you will always be unhappy.  To give the governement that kind of power implies that others can do so as well, and others' morality could be quite different than your own. - best to get the government out of legislating in general... save the moral issues of actions to the individuals and their religious affiliations.

Leaving aside the fact that if I wanted to legislate my personal view that smoking pot is wrong (which I don't think, BTW), I'd be happier with the status quo than I am, I never called for legislating morality. You've just retreated into comfortable old rhetoric.

Abortion? No more than the law on homicide is "legislating morality", and you say states can decide either way. Homosexuality? But I never said it should be banned, and don't think it. I just don't want it sanctioned. Even if the fees cover the whole cost, which probably varies from state to state, you, and everyone else who made the arguement from fees, left the second reason untouched. So suppose someone pays for a big bronze plaque of John 3:16 at a courthouse or town hall. Not forcing anyone to do or not do anything, not imposing any financial burdens on anyone but the donor, just sitting, a constant declaration of what the government approves of. I'm pretty sure what you'd think of that. But you like it when the government sanctions homosexual relationships. Legislating morality is exactly what you're doing, you're just getting the morality screwed up.
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