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Author Topic: Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare  (Read 6206 times)

Liberty603

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« on: July 15, 2012, 03:03:57 pm »

Someone just asked if we'd seen a bump in signups since the SCOTUS decision on Obamacare. Based on Google Analytics, it looks like we have. It will be interesting to see how this is reflected in the official stats.

https://twitter.com/FreeStateNH/status/224594003176341505
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2012, 11:17:30 pm »

Odd. Since nothing can be done at the State level.
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MaineShark

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2012, 01:12:54 pm »

Odd. Since nothing can be done at the State level.

NH has already done several things that will, at minimum, act as an impediment.

Nullification is also always an option.  The Feds cannot tolerate an outright rebellion so, as in the case of Real ID, state-level refusal to participate may result in repeated modifications to the deadlines by the Feds.  If requirement that folks comply keeps getting pushed back, the law may as well not exist.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2012, 11:58:25 pm »

Not even close. The State can't stop any of the taxes. And the only thing comparable to Real ID is the Exchanges; but unlike Real ID, the federal government will have complete control of that. While in the case of Real ID, it only mattered to those crossing a national border... because they needed passports instead of using their State-issued ID.

And Nullification is not an option without violation of Part First Article Seven, and the US Constitution.
The Feds can't tolerate an outright rebellion if its up against a respected opponent, but its shown that it can put down rebellions quite well.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 12:01:40 am by John Edward Mercier »
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MaineShark

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2012, 09:49:32 am »

Not even close. The State can't stop any of the taxes.

And Federal power is too shaky to tax folks for not complying with something, when the State government is interfering with their ability to comply.

And the only thing comparable to Real ID is the Exchanges; but unlike Real ID, the federal government will have complete control of that. While in the case of Real ID, it only mattered to those crossing a national border... because they needed passports instead of using their State-issued ID.

There's a significant question as to whether the Feds will actually be able to create exchanges.  Many of the economic numbers say that they cannot make it happen without transferring the burden to the States.

And Nullification is not an option without violation of Part First Article Seven, and the US Constitution.

Article Seven is precisely what allows, and even mandates nullification of any law which does not adhere to the delegated powers.

The Feds can't tolerate an outright rebellion if its up against a respected opponent, but its shown that it can put down rebellions quite well.

Doubt it.  The situation is far different.  There's no easy ability to suppress the media, these days, the issue is not one that creates strong enough feelings (at least, not in favor of the Feds - this is one of the most-despised pieces of legislation in US history), and Federal power is currently quite shaky, indeed.  Look at Real ID, medical marijuana, etc. - the Feds are losing their ability to enforce their laws by winning compliance, and are instead resorting to terrorist attacks on individuals.  That only gets you so far...
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2012, 04:35:33 pm »

If NH interferes it violates its own constitution. So the courts would intercede.

Taxation is one of the delegated powers.

There isn't a need to suppress the media. Rebellions are put down by clausations within the Constitution.

And they really don't have to enforce anything... just remove the commerce and defense for which that level of government was established.
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MaineShark

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2012, 09:40:20 am »

If NH interferes it violates its own constitution. So the courts would intercede.

False.

Taxation is one of the delegated powers.

Not "any and all taxation, of any sort, for any purpose."  Anything which violates any of the other clauses, was clearly not delegated.  So, a type of taxation which would violate P1A3, for example, would not be in keeping with the contract between the State of NH and the Federal government.  If I wanted to sell someone my work truck, and showed it to them while it was loaded with all my tools, but the sales contract clearly states, "no tools are included," he cannot then turn around and claim that I need to give him all the tools that were in it when he saw it, because the contract made it clear that those tools were not part of the sale.  Any Article already present at the ratification of the US Constitution was, therefore, clearly restrictive of what powers might be delegated.  Further, since the NH Constitution clearly defines the power of amendment, any Article added or modified after ratification is also restrictive of what powers might be delegated.

Obamacare patently violates P1A3, among others.  Ergo, the establishment of a tax by the Federal government for that purpose is not among the powers delegated to it by the State of NH.

There isn't a need to suppress the media. Rebellions are put down by clausations within the Constitution.

I'm not sure what a "clausation" is.  Does it have magical powers?
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2012, 11:51:13 pm »

P1A3 is not a limitation on the US Constitution.
US Con Article 6.

US Con Article 3 Section 2. Once the Supreme Court has ruled on a dispute between the State(s) and the federal government... that is the end of arbitration on the matter.

P1A7 authorized all those articles. And the US Con was adopted prior to the current NH Con.

So the 'contract' clearly laid out arbitration between the State and federal government... and clearly laid out that nothing in the State Constitution could supercede the US Constitution.


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MaineShark

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2012, 01:15:11 am »

P1A3 is not a limitation on the US Constitution.

It's a limitation on all acts of any government, anywhere.  That's why it's in the bill of rights.

And the US Con was adopted prior to the current NH Con.

That's patently false.  The NH Constitution became effective on June 2, 1784.  The US Constitution was not even adopted by the Convention until September 17, 1787.  The NH Constitution was in effect years before even the first draft of the US Constitution was written.

and clearly laid out that nothing in the State Constitution could supercede the US Constitution.

On the contrary; the NH Constitution lays out that nothing in the Federal Constitution can ever supersede the NH Constitution.  Those are the terms that were in effect at the time.  P1A7 clearly states that the only powers delegated, are those which are expressly delegated.  No more.  And since P1A3 puts express limits on the powers that any government is permitted, there is no rational argument to be had, which would result in NH delegating powers that NH clearly defined as prohibited to government.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2012, 10:35:16 am »

My mistake on the timeline. For some reason I had '87 and '89 in my head when posting.
But I'm not sure how the surrender of natural rights is not reciprocal?

Or that the inclusion of Article 6, would not have made NHs ratification of the US Constitution impossible?

 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 10:39:51 am by John Edward Mercier »
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MaineShark

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2012, 11:52:51 am »

But I'm not sure how the surrender of natural rights is not reciprocal?

Because there's nothing whatsoever reciprocal about it?

Who is protected by the surrender of the right to make choices about one's own healthcare?  Obamacare protects the profits of the insurance companies.  It protects the power-mad politicians.  It protects those who want a national ID card, as healthcare access cards will attempt to become that.

Who is protected in any way which is equivalent to the right that is restricted?

Or that the inclusion of Article 6, would not have made NHs ratification of the US Constitution impossible?

Article 6... requires that NH not interfere with religious freedom.  Not sure why you think that would interfere with ratification...
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2012, 12:57:33 pm »

It has a reciprocal loss to all.
The insurance companies have to provide something that they would not under a free market (actually several things), the power-mad politicians jump back and forth dependent on which party enacted the mandate... but it was pressed by those supposedly supporting more liberty looking toward Switzerland for an answer, and I think Voter ID will move more toward a national ID.

US Constitution Article 6, not P1A6.
'This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.'


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MaineShark

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2012, 01:09:07 pm »

It has a reciprocal loss to all.
The insurance companies have to provide something that they would not under a free market (actually several things)...

That's not equivalent with what's taken from the People.

"Give me your car, now - but, to make it up to you, I'll give you this pack of gum!"

P1A3 requires that the exchange be equivalent.  The things the insurance companies are required to provide, will be billed to the customers, anyway, so they are giving up next to nothing.

US Constitution Article 6, not P1A6.
'This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.'

That only addresses things which are made under the authority of the US.  Since they do not have the authority to enact things which violate the terms under which ratification took place, laws like Obamacare are not protected by that clause.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2012, 01:55:30 pm »

I don't think P1A3, since it speaks of natural rights being surrender, is concerned with what a corporation surrenders.

The PPAHCA was found to be a tax. Constitutional under US Con Article One Section Eight Clause One 'The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;'

The State Legislature would have greater legal problems with their acceptance of certain formats of federal funding, which aren't authorized in the US Constitution... but are openly accepted by the State Legislature.
They could argue that the federal government isn't authorized to expend on medical programs... but I haven't heard anyone suggest suspending the acceptance of Medicaid funds.
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MaineShark

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Re: Sign-up statistics and Obamacare
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2012, 08:00:05 pm »

Regardless of whether it's a tax, it's not the sort of tax that is authorized.  We're been over that.

Taxing one group for the enrichment of a certain other group, is ridiculous.  Obamacare is no more Constitutional than it would be to tax Black people and give the money to White people, or vice versa.
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

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