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Author Topic: Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.  (Read 9758 times)

Dalamar49

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2003, 03:22:46 pm »

Nevada shares the same political apathy that Wyoming does and look where that's gotten us. Now our state is getting taken over by politically active Californians who want socialism and poltically active Utah'ins who want to conservatize Nevada. Political apathy is a negative not a positive. I rather live in a state with a politically active, liberal populace than a state with a  politically apathetic populace.

Apathy is an open door that welcomes any group to come in and force change. Yes, that can be beneficial to the FSP, but it also leaves the political door open to any pro-government group around who'd like resocialize the state we've worked so hard to liberate.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2003, 03:24:20 pm by Dalamar49 »
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EMOR

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2003, 03:32:34 pm »

And "handful" is all the Porcupines have.  Maybe one in thirty voters.  When Porcupines gather together and see a couple dozen like-minded potential activists they get enthused. Yet a few dozen effective activists is a mere handful in a state of a million people. Will 20,000 Porcupines result in 20,000 activists?  Be careful with the answer since history proves otherwise.

1.  You have expressed many times that 20,000 people is not enough.  I agree.  I'm far more pessimistic than most.  I apply the 80/20 rule twice.  Only 20%, or 4,000 people will actually move.  Of those, only 20%, or 800 are "activists" as we would define them.  Thats right!  Only 800 porcupines running for office, writing letters, and attending rallies.  Now, if most people here were as pessimistic as I, they'd dump the whole FSP idea and move on.  But I have seen what a couple dozen activists can do in New Hampshire.  Fourty times as many would be extraordinary.  But not enough to outvote anybody in any state!  We'll have to rely heavily on native activists, mostly on an issue-by-issue basis.



CONCLUSION:

The population analsysis we've seen is flawed.  We cannot hope to make meaningful progress by outvoting anyone, even in Wyoming.  We must use a DIFFERENT STRATEGY.  We must run for offices, and promote our ideals on a campaign-by-campaign basis.  We must do this in a place that has expressed openness to our ideas, and that has a strong grass-roots political culture.

New Hampshire is that place.  Wyoming and other western states is not.


This pretty much sums up the conclusions that I have arrived at as well.
You say you want a new strategy, but you state the same strategy the LP has failed at for years. If we want to continue to fail then NH is the place. If we want to succeed then Wyoming is the only choice.
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EMOR

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2003, 03:34:33 pm »

Nevada shares the same political apathy that Wyoming does and look where that's gotten us. Now our state is getting taken over by politically active Californians who want socialism and poltically active Utah'ins who want to conservatize Nevada. Political apathy is a negative not a positive. I rather live in a state with a politically active, liberal populace than a state with a  politically apathetic populace.

Apathy is an open door that welcomes any group to come in and force change. Yes, that can be beneficial to the FSP, but it also leaves the political door open to any pro-government group around who'd like resocialize the state we've worked so hard to liberate.
You just made a good case for Wyoming. If it is easy for a few to take over Nevada then it will be easier for 20,000 FSPers to take over Wyoming.  :D
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jgmaynard

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2003, 04:03:55 pm »

Within a population of politically active people, our numbers will increase as we gain activists, not just promises  to vote, which may or may not ever materialize.

As was said at the Escape to NH, our 2% will be able to train 2%, who can train 2%, and so on....

Apathy means there are no tools to work with.

New Hampshire offers us a politically active base, with a strong 37% of  registered independents.  

We need people to win. We need activists. We have them in New Hampshire.

500th post! :D

JM



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Karl

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2003, 04:21:16 pm »

You say you want a new strategy, but you state the same strategy the LP has failed at for years. If we want to continue to fail then NH is the place. If we want to succeed then Wyoming is the only choice.

If you're still sold on the "20,000 is enough for libertopia" fantasy, I can't help you.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2003, 04:24:14 pm »

That's because folks in Wyoming, as far as I can tell, are not terribly excited about political pressure groups. Wyoming is not a politics-saturated state (which is I thought what we were all shooting for, in the long range - civil society over political society). They are more interested in people as individuals. My scant experience in Wyoming tells me I'd be very welcomed there.

What we are interested in is to take over political society so that we can enable civilians to live as they wish without opression. Once we do this, we serve as an example, a beacon, that will spread our policies to neighboring states, across the country, and around the world. You can't do that hiding in a bunker in Wyoming.

While I see in Wyoming that laws are passed that mandate that my fingerprints be turned over to the FBI after I apply for a CCW, I see in NH pass laws that outlaw the collection of fingerprints or photographs by local law enforcement entirely.

My scant experience in Wyoming tells me different than yours. My lifetime of experience in NH tells me that NH is already Free State, version 0.5.
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anarchicluv

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2003, 06:24:11 pm »

Zxcv,

You make an excellent point here; especially for those with an anarcho-capatalist outlook.  I would much rather we move to a state w/ less politics than more.  Wyoming is certainly the best choice when taking this into consideration.

Some will use politics as a means of changing our chosen state into the most Free State in the union; others such as myself will take a much different approach.  I think that regardless of the approach one chooses to take, the less politics involved the better.

Jeremy
A much different approach?  Will they be referring to your house as a compound on CNN one day?

I certainly hope not.

I won't bother trying to explain my beliefs here, as many others have done so already in cyberspace.  If you're interested in learning more about those of us who don't think fighting politics with politics works (fire with fire), then check out these sites:

The Voluntaryist: http://users.aol.com/vlntryst/
Strike The Root: http://www.strike-the-root.com/
Rational Review: http://www.rationalreview.com/
Lew Rockwell: http://www.lewrockwell.com/

Jeremy
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If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood.
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JonM

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2003, 07:16:04 pm »

I won't bother trying to explain my beliefs here, as many others have done so already in cyberspace.  If you're interested in learning more about those of us who don't think fighting politics with politics works (fire with fire), then check out these sites:

The Voluntaryist: http://users.aol.com/vlntryst/
Strike The Root: http://www.strike-the-root.com/
Rational Review: http://www.rationalreview.com/
Lew Rockwell: http://www.lewrockwell.com/

Jeremy

I was under the impression the FSP was designed to gather 20,000 pro-liberty people to work within the political process to effect change.  If this is not the case, would someone please tell me?  Jason, could you clarify?

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anarchicluv

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2003, 07:51:37 pm »

I was under the impression the FSP was designed to gather 20,000 pro-liberty people to work within the political process to effect change.  If this is not the case, would someone please tell me?  Jason, could you clarify?

From the FAQ:

Q. Who is welcome to participate?

A. Anyone who can agree to the clause in the Statement of Intent which says that you should support the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of citizens' rights to life, liberty, and property. In essence, this includes everyone who wants to cut the size and scope of government by about two-thirds or more. Put in a positive way, most FSP members support policies such as abolition of all income taxes, elimination of regulatory bureaucracies, repeal of most gun control laws, repeal of most drug prohibition laws, complete free trade, decentralization of government, and widescale privatization. People of this disposition may go by many names: "classical liberals" (not the same as modern liberals at all, but followers of Thomas Jefferson and similar thinkers), libertarians, paleoconservatives, constitutionalists, voluntarists, etc., etc.


I may not agree that politics is the way to reach these goals, but I certainly agree with the goals themselves.  There are many paths up this mountain.  If we can all work together, each of us taking the path to reform that suits us best, we will succeed.

Also from the FAQ:

Q. The Statement of Intent says that I should "exert the fullest possible effort" toward the creation of a minimal-government society, but I have moral objections to voting. Would the FSP require me to vote?

A. The short answer is "no." "Possible" is to be defined by each individual for himself; that language in the Statement is intended to be a proud statement of courage, to inspire. Obviously, everyone who joins the FSP has a deep commitment to liberty, given the personal investments that are involved in the Project. Our job is not to assess or judge that commitment.


Jeremy

« Last Edit: July 20, 2003, 07:53:23 pm by Misterbeanz »
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Kelton Baker

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2003, 08:09:08 pm »

CONCLUSION:

The population analsysis we've seen is flawed.  We cannot hope to make meaningful progress by outvoting anyone, even in Wyoming.  We must use a DIFFERENT STRATEGY.  We must run for offices, and promote our ideals on a campaign-by-campaign basis.  We must do this in a place that has expressed openness to our ideas, and that has a strong grass-roots political culture.


If this is truly your position,  Idaho fits beautifully.  Double the number of Libertarian Party candidates ran for office than in New Hampshire and in more prominent offices, much higher vote totals for the LP, far better totals in Idaho's best 3-way races, several 2-way races between Republicans and Libertarians. . .
 
Want a strong grass-roots political culture?  That is what Boise is shaping-out to be.  A petition drive of thousands readily garnered far more signatures than necessary to oust former Boise mayor after he decided to use taxpayer money to pay for  a dinner and a show; a march through the streets followed --try finding that kind of pro-liberty activism in any other city of its size!



Quote

Some will use politics as a means of changing our chosen state into the most Free State in the union; others such as myself will take a much different approach.  I think that regardless of the approach one chooses to take, the less politics involved the better.


Of course, I agree with Misterbeanz here on this one.  Far more has been accomplished for liberty through the forces of society than in the realm of politics.  I would like to play a part in a religious sort of awakening, particularly among those of my own faith in recognizing how spiritually defeating it is to try to force belief upon others.  The political aspect is important, but there has got to be a few 'miracles' happen behind the scenes first.

272
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JonM

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2003, 08:34:15 pm »

Misterbeanz,

Point conceded, but how successful do you think this project will be without political activity?
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Jacobus

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2003, 08:41:16 pm »

Quote
I was under the impression the FSP was designed to gather 20,000 pro-liberty people to work within the political process to effect change.

Working within the system does not necessarily mean running for office and voting.  There is plenty else to do to help create a free state:

Support homeschooling.  If you can, homeschool your own children.  Participate in homeschool networks and help others see an alternative to government "education" and hopefully use it themselves.  Homeschool networks not only help with public sentiment, but would make it easier for others to homeschool.  For example, busy parents may not have the time, resources, or education themselves to handle all aspects of their children's education.  Networks could help by providing group social activities, field trips, and provide tutor/teachers that could help with a "classroom" of students.

Gun rights.  I am of the opinion that most anti-gun nuts have never touched a gun.  Public shooting days can help public sentiment as well as get others interested in firearms.  A strong gun culture helps reduce crime, and simply exercising one's rights helps prevent others from infringing upon them.  Also, I hope that a strong gun culture would dissuade statists (who generally despise gun rights) from moving in from other states (this could be a good concern for NH, for example).

Spreading freedom ideas.  One does not have to run for office to discuss political philosophy.  Writing letters to newspapers, pamphleteering, engaging others in conversation at the bar: all great pro-freedom activities.  It would be pretty neat to see, if many liberty-minded individuals are in an area, if civic organizations become popular to discuss and debate issues.

Participating in the free market.  The voluntary division of labor helps enhance all of our lives.  Libertarians might be able to help create a culture of freedom through their business.  For example, a bookstore that offers and promotes liberty books.  Or a pro-liberty newspaper.  

Providing alternatives to government "services."  Obviously, homeschooling is a big one.  Another big one is private charity.  My personal favorite is an alternative to Federal Reserve Notes.  In many cases, existing competition will be needed to make the switch.  If, after years of government monopoly, there were no private businesses to pick up the trash, then few people would support abolishing government trash pickup.  In some cases, the economics and politics is such that no private company would provide competition (such as, if everyone pays mandatory taxes for trash pickup).  but if a few laws are repealed or changed to allow consumers the choice of who they pay, private alternatives will be needed to complete the switch to the free market.

In short, a culture of liberty will be needed at least as much as political activism.  Do not write off those who do not wish to participate in the political process.  
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anarchicluv

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2003, 08:50:28 pm »

Misterbeanz,

Point conceded, but how successful do you think this project will be without political activity?

Participating in politics is certainly not the only way in which one can help this project succeed.  Check out the excellent post above by Jacobus on different ways that one who does not participate in politics can have a major effect on the success of the Free State.

How successful would politicians be at controlling our lives if they ceased to have any legitimacy with the people?  Voting only encourages them.

Jeremy
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If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood.
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JonM

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2003, 08:53:51 pm »

Quote
I was under the impression the FSP was designed to gather 20,000 pro-liberty people to work within the political process to effect change.

Working within the system does not necessarily mean running for office and voting.  There is plenty else to do to help create a free state:

Support homeschooling.  If you can, homeschool your own children.  Participate in homeschool networks and help others see an alternative to government "education" and hopefully use it themselves.  Homeschool networks not only help with public sentiment, but would make it easier for others to homeschool.  For example, busy parents may not have the time, resources, or education themselves to handle all aspects of their children's education.  Networks could help by providing group social activities, field trips, and provide tutor/teachers that could help with a "classroom" of students.

Gun rights.  I am of the opinion that most anti-gun nuts have never touched a gun.  Public shooting days can help public sentiment as well as get others interested in firearms.  A strong gun culture helps reduce crime, and simply exercising one's rights helps prevent others from infringing upon them.  Also, I hope that a strong gun culture would dissuade statists (who generally despise gun rights) from moving in from other states (this could be a good concern for NH, for example).

Spreading freedom ideas.  One does not have to run for office to discuss political philosophy.  Writing letters to newspapers, pamphleteering, engaging others in conversation at the bar: all great pro-freedom activities.  It would be pretty neat to see, if many liberty-minded individuals are in an area, if civic organizations become popular to discuss and debate issues.

Participating in the free market.  The voluntary division of labor helps enhance all of our lives.  Libertarians might be able to help create a culture of freedom through their business.  For example, a bookstore that offers and promotes liberty books.  Or a pro-liberty newspaper.  

Providing alternatives to government "services."  Obviously, homeschooling is a big one.  Another big one is private charity.  My personal favorite is an alternative to Federal Reserve Notes.  In many cases, existing competition will be needed to make the switch.  If, after years of government monopoly, there were no private businesses to pick up the trash, then few people would support abolishing government trash pickup.  In some cases, the economics and politics is such that no private company would provide competition (such as, if everyone pays mandatory taxes for trash pickup).  but if a few laws are repealed or changed to allow consumers the choice of who they pay, private alternatives will be needed to complete the switch to the free market.

In short, a culture of liberty will be needed at least as much as political activism.  Do not write off those who do not wish to participate in the political process.  

I see some of those actions as falling within the bounds of political activism, but that could just be me.
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anarchicluv

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Re:Bias in state advocacy and in research and dealing with opposition.
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2003, 09:22:37 pm »

I see some of those actions as falling within the bounds of political activism, but that could just be me.

Politics:

1. The science of government; that part of ethics which has to do with the regulation and government of a nation or state, the preservation of its safety, peace, and prosperity, the defense of its existence and rights against foreign control or conquest, the augmentation of its strength and resources, and the protection of its citizens in their rights, with the preservation and improvement of their morals.

2. The management of a political party; the conduct and contests of parties with reference to political measures or the administration of public affairs; the advancement of candidates to office; in a bad sense, artful or dishonest management to secure the success of political candidates or parties; political trickery.[/i]
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If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood.
~Henry David Thoreau
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