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Author Topic: New Hampshire  (Read 243163 times)

Heyduke

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2002, 10:13:33 am »

Zippotony--by 'lifer' do you mean, native of New Hampshire?  

SOl and ZT...as a native New Hampshirite, freedom lover, tax hater, personal rights supporter, I can honestly say that myself and the vast majority of those that I know in NH do NOT want more people moving in regardless of their political and philosophical views.  

For example...I have a proposed development up the road from me...I don't care if every house is owned by the dallas cowboy cheerleaders, or murray bookchin's cult of personality or charlton hestonites...I don't want the development built and I don't want anyone moving in.  Period.  This has been a longstanding irritation from native northern New Englanders--people move in, say 'my this place is beautiful!' and then bring in all the crap that they moved away from in the first place.  

Live Free or Die means--do what you want within an accepted societal value system.  It does not mean--wear your militia colors and fight the Feds.  Using the NRA as a fight symbol is no better or worse than using an abortion argument, a tax argument or personal privacy/freedom (from the home security/patriot act) argument.  It means be strong, be independant and respect each others opinions and views.  

FSP will rot from within if it relies upon a militia mentality.  


And SOL...it's funny seeing a 2 year resident from below the 'iron curtain' himself  referring to others as 'socialists'...I'm just going to leave that alone for now...
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Otosan

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2002, 05:32:25 pm »

Now Heyduke you know how us southerns have felt for years about all those dang yankees moving down here....this will be payback....  ;D  ;D  ;D
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Heyduke

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2002, 06:03:02 pm »

Well then, I guess you best start practicin' your Yankee accent and gettin' used to frigid winters and blackflies that'll suck you dry!  

gonna have to learn how to pronounce things right...

Berlin = Burr-ln

West Lebanon = West Leb or West Lebnin

Portsmouth = Potsmith

Nashua = Nashwah

Manchester = Manch Vegas

Somersworth = Scummersworth

thus ended the lesson...
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Solitar

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2002, 06:53:51 pm »

MouseBorg,
Heyduke has hit the proverbial nail on the head.
One of my libertarian councilmember compatriots is all for freedoms and against planning and zoning and codes and all that -- except when it applies to building and such in HER neighborhood. That is the acid test or litmus test or crucible for any libertarian and libertarian movement. Can they get their libertarian members to be good neighbors and can they get themselves to tolerate the people next door.

Free Staters have to figure out how to make it work, how to move a thousand people into Goffstown without having everyone at each others throats and demanding more laws.

Goffstown the New England "town" of 17,000 people or the Village Center which you find on the map.
http://www.town.goffstown.nh.us/overview.shtml

I think it could be done - with a lot of tolerance, low profile living, and libertarianism from all involved.
Then again, maybe Heyduke is right.
It IS their town after all.

and THAT, dear all, is the essence of planning & zoning and covented communities -- protecting THEIR town from...
well whatever - outsiders, ugly houses, or just more houses - period.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2003, 02:26:21 am by Joe, aka, Solitar »
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2002, 07:20:25 pm »

I don't understand the anti-development mentality.  What is so bad about having people move in near you?  How does that fact reduce your quality of life?  If the problems have to do with traffic, pollution, and other negative externalities, then a free-market, private-property-rights policy regime will solve these problems, with market pricing on roads and torts for pollution.  But a growing population also has positive externalities, such as more diverse, cosmopolitan communities and economies, more leisure activities, etc.

Incidentally, New Hampshire's population growth has not been substantially above the norm for the U.S. over the last 20 years.  Of the states we're considering, the Dakotas and Maine are well below the normal rate of population growth, while Alaska and Idaho are well above it.
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Heyduke

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2002, 09:01:32 pm »

Mouse Borg my friend, quoting Thomas Paine isn't necessarily a good thing...

I don't need folks to understand my viewpoint, but taking blurbs out of context for argument's sake certainly helps no one--that would be non constructive.  My intention is in pointing out that, thus far, you have received little obvious support from natives of any particular state.  There seems to be this pride mentality in which you are so certain that what you are involved in is better than anything that currently exists.  This is contradictory to my freedom (or interpretation of it) when your efforts are in direct conflict with those of myself and my neighbors.  This hubris, that you are looking down upon creation with a clearer perspective and greater understanding and purpose than I could possibly have, well, it sickens me to a degree.  I support some underlying principles of FSP, but not when it bears the promise of having 20,000 people shoved down my throat with the obvious intent to hijack the political system--and that is exactly what FSP would be doing.  

Jason--NH has experienced a growth in population, 'tis true...but compare land areas between the Dakotas, Maine, Alaska and NH--I do believe that you will find that NH has the highest population density of them all due to the obvious fact that NH is tremendously smaller than all of them, including its neighbor--Maine.  

So that's just some standard volleying--certainly interested in continuing this or similar threads, if for no other reason than to give you an opportunity to see a different perspective.  

And MouseBorg?  Nothing against you at all...as the name and symbol may allude, people aren't so high on the 'things I love the most' chart...
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Sons of Liberty

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2002, 09:11:37 pm »


And SOL...it's funny seeing a 2 year resident from below the 'iron curtain' himself  referring to others as 'socialists'...I'm just going to leave that alone for now...


Heyduke:  Explain how it's funny that I referred to the socialists moving into NH when I moved to here from Pennsylvania?  Because PA is southwest of NH?  I don't follow.  

Also, I assure you that I have no intention of bringing any "crap" with me from where I came from, whatever that means.  Unfortunately, I am not a native of NH.  I have no control over where I was born.  I am now a resident , have no intention of leaving, and will try to contribute to improving NH.

Regards,
SOL      
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Mega Joule

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2002, 05:15:19 am »


I don't understand the anti-development mentality.  What is so bad about having people move in near you?  How does that fact reduce your quality of life?

Some folks require more space than others in order to feel they have adequate privacy and freedom of movement.  Many of us would find new houses popping up everywhere, blocking the view, and crowding the neighborhood revolting.  I live in such a place being a native of CA.  I hate it here and resent every new building that goes up.  But alas, I can do nothing about it.  Being stuck in an environment I hate reduces my quality of life, and when I finally get out of here and find that perfect place in country I sure as heck don’t want 1,000 new neighbors suddenly moving into town.  Heck I don’t even want 10.  This is why I think one of the large western states would be a better choice.
Quote

 But a growing population also has positive externalities, such as more diverse, cosmopolitan communities and economies, more leisure activities, etc.

Those things are only positive if that is what you like.  What if you hate cosmopolitan communities and deliberately moved somewhere to avoid such?  And then all these strangers come flooding into your area and your dream home is shot to h**l.   My idea of leisure is hundreds of acres of solitude, but I cannot afford to buy that much quality of life.

Meg
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Solitar

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2002, 11:19:20 am »

Quote
What if you hate cosmopolitan communities and deliberately moved somewhere to avoid such?  And then all these strangers come flooding into your area and your dream home is shot to h**l.   My idea of leisure is hundreds of acres of solitude, but I cannot afford to buy that much quality of life.
Meg, the western states are more urbanized than New England -- because people are clustered in bigger cities (see my stats on that in the more criteria thread and in a new thread listing the bigger cities.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=569

Your last sentence epitomizes a liberty-minded and anti-P&Z dilemma. A person loving wide-open spaces and distant neighbors buys ten acres in the middle of "nowhere". Then the place is discovered and a new housing development plops down next door and pretty soon you've got gas stations, convenience stores, etc. right there between you and your favorite fishing stream or rabbit-hunting area. Should you have used growth restrictions and Planning & Zoning ahead of time? Should you have bought a hundred acres? What to do? Or what to undo since, apparently, liberty-minded folks are against such P&Z regs. Yet like I said elsewhere, libertarians are great for more freedom -- until it has to apply to encroaching neighbors in their back yards.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2003, 02:30:42 am by Joe, aka, Solitar »
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Mega Joule

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2002, 01:30:27 pm »


Quote
What if you hate cosmopolitan communities and deliberately moved somewhere to avoid such?  And then all these strangers come flooding into your area and your dream home is shot to h**l.   My idea of leisure is hundreds of acres of solitude, but I cannot afford to buy that much quality of life.
Meg, the western states are more urbanized than New England -- because people are clustered in bigger cities […]


This is true, however their huge geographic size respective of the eastern states permits one to escape the handful of large cities, Montana for example has only six cities on your list with >20,000 and Wyoming has only three.  That leaves a lot of wide open space in between.
Quote

You last sentence epitomizes a liberty-minded and anti-P&Z dilemma. A person loving wide-open spaces and distant neighbors buys ten acres in the middle of "nowhere". Then the place is discovered and a new housing development plops down next door and pretty soon you've got gas stations, convenience stores, etc. right there between you and your favorite fishing stream or rabbit-hunting area. Should you have used growth restrictions and Planning & Zoning ahead of time? Should you have bought a hundred acres? What to do? Or what to undo since, apparently, liberty-minded folks are against such P&Z regs. Yet like I said elsewhere, libertarians are great for more freedom -- until it has to apply to encroaching neighbors in their back yards.

Exactly!  My husband and I debate this issue regularly and have never yet found a mutually acceptable approach.  He argues that P&Z regs restrict peoples freedom to live and build where they want.  I agree.  However, not having such regulations violates my freedom to live where and how I want with some reasonable expectation that my location choice will not be radically altered.  He argues that one can simply move.  I argue back that I could move, but I should not have to leave my home that I have invested some significant portion of my life in just because some rich developer wants to build 300 new homes or some industrial chemical plant thinks it is a great place for a factory.

I do not know how liberty-minded folks can resolve this.  I can see the validity of both sides of the argument.  What are your thoughts?

Meg
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Jefferonian Democr

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2002, 01:36:33 pm »

I was born and grew up in NH and left after graduating from UNH in 1975.  I'm currently living in Texas.  I've just learned about FSP, after thinking about the concept for years I was astonished to find out such a movement existed.   I immediately signed up.  Of course I will go where ever it is decided but moving back to NH would have it's appeal.  

I think there are many advantages to NH, or there used to be.  One of the biggest disadvantages I see is the large amount of refugees from the Peoples Republic of Massachussets that have already settled in Southern NH and brought their bad ideology with them.  I was back visiting family a couple of weeks ago and heard that a candidate for governor was talking about introducing an income tax.  Such a thing would have been unheard of even 5 years ago, but since a large part of people are already paying NR tax to Mass. it must be more acceptable these day's.  I fear NH may be too far down the road to bigger government than a lot of people may realize, at least it seems that way from my perspective.  



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JasonPSorens

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2002, 03:25:16 pm »


I do not know how liberty-minded folks can resolve this.  I can see the validity of both sides of the argument.  What are your thoughts?


What about getting a bunch of anti-development, anti-P&Z people together and buying a single bloc of several hundred acres?  Then they could perhaps contract with each other not to sell off or subdivide their land in perpetuity.
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Barbara

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2002, 03:30:42 pm »


Exactly!  My husband and I debate this issue regularly and have never yet found a mutually acceptable approach.  He argues that P&Z regs restrict peoples freedom to live and build where they want.  I agree.  However, not having such regulations violates my freedom to live where and how I want with some reasonable expectation that my location choice will not be radically altered.  He argues that one can simply move.  I argue back that I could move, but I should not have to leave my home that I have invested some significant portion of my life in just because some rich developer wants to build 300 new homes or some industrial chemical plant thinks it is a great place for a factory.

I do not know how liberty-minded folks can resolve this.  I can see the validity of both sides of the argument.  What are your thoughts?

Meg



Liberty minded folks understand that property rights protect their use of their property so long as their use does not infringe on the rights of others.  However, no one has a right to live without neighbors one does not like, nor to control anothers' use of his or her property.  

So, you can buy up enough property that you don't have to worry about what your neighbors are building in proximity to your home, or move, or live with it.  But the minute you impose P&Z on others' use of their property, you have left liberty-mindedness behind, and worse, you are no longer able to take a principled stand for liberty in any other area.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2002, 06:28:58 pm »

Well, I've read that population growth is actually levelling out in the U.S. and has already turned negative in Europe.  I think they're predicting that world population will stabilise at 10 billion or so in 2050 and then start declining.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Yes! Move to NH
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2002, 07:19:19 am »

Check this sucker out:
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldpop.html
It looks as if world population doesn't quite level out in 2050, but it's close to it, and pop is only 9 billion.

Humans are different from other species, in that we are the only ones that can intentionally restrict procreation without restricting copulation, through contraceptives.  There is a very clear correlation between growth in per capita income and female education on the one hand and declining birth rate on the other.  As the 3rd World lifts itself out of poverty, and especially if time can break down Islam's crushing effects on women, their birth rates will decline, eventually to 1st-World levels, which are right now well below the population replacement rate:
http://econ.la.psu.edu/~dshapiro/463iiib.htm
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism
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