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Author Topic: liberal whining about delaware  (Read 10406 times)

Solitar

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Re: anarchists who want to shoot politicians
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2002, 07:21:10 pm »

Wild Pegasus had a great post regarding Delaware which has me seriously reconsidering that state.
Quote
Delaware politics are under the control of the chemical and banking industries.  Big corporations are not interested in the free market at all, and since the state apparatus pays big returns, they will invest heavily to whip you.
Thus I've started a thread specifically to address:
Can a small state's government be too easily bought?
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=262

Unfortunately Wild Pegasus has given up on the local political possibilities. He needs to move to a smaller community or pick more winnable seats. I did. The reason the LP candidates don't win more legislative seats is that they don't try in races they can win. Many council and board seats go unopposed while the LP races after state and federal seats.

On another note...
Though it may not apply to the Wild Pegasus, some anarchist types do have the attitude about shooting politicians. Somebody back a bit ago here posted "The only good politician is a dead politician".
How can we change things when some have that attitude?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2002, 12:21:52 am by Joe »
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Victor VI

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Re:liberal whining about delaware
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2002, 11:50:37 pm »

I found this article in The New Republic about Delaware amusing. The
establishment-leftist author is absolutely enraged at Delaware's "history
of disloyalty."

ROFLMAO!!!

That was priceless! Any state that can evoke such a vitrolic reaction from a Sensitive Man of the Hanky such as Jonathan Chait has certainly got my support! They gotta be doing something right!

I took particular notice of the item which stated public floggings weren't banned until 1952. Perhaps it's not too late to ressurect the practice for application to tax-and-spend politicians.

If we could get that law passed, I'd move there tomorrow! ;)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2002, 12:30:02 am by Victor VI »
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Re:liberal whining about delaware
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2002, 07:18:15 pm »


I did read the strategies page.  What I am trying to point out is that is all fine and good when the politicians are generally inoffensive centrist suits.  When you're talking about dismantling public schools, ending state support of business, and severing the cord between the state's residents and the middle class federal welfare programs, you're talking about the kind of beliefs which, though right, scare the living hell out of people.  Running those political races scares people who would otherwise not bother to vote to the polls under the "I don't like this jackass, but I won't let those nuts take away <x>." philosophy.

I think that this really gets to the heart of the matter.  Unless we choose a state that is already inhabitated by anti-government extremists, the FSP will never have any real influence.  I'd say Idaho or someplace similar is our best chance.  Forget any of those east-coast states, they have way too many normal people.
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Wild Pegasus

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Re:liberal whining about delaware
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2002, 02:10:34 pm »

Pardon me, but I will be making two consecutive posts to deal with two very different issues.  First, Jason's post:

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There is no alternative to electoral politics.


This is one of the worst quotes I've ever read in the libertarian movement.  When has electoral politics ever moved toward liberty?  Once?  Never?  Politics has always been changed by people working outside the system because the system is designed not to be changed.  The system is designed to ensconce the power of the people who created it.

The precious Constitution, which is an object of worship in the libertarian movement, was the first step in the centralization of power in the US and the first steps of the development of the overweening American empire that currently exists.  It was intentionally written to be vague and undefined, because the people who created it agitated for a larger, more intrusive government - James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, etc.  Much like that piece of garbage Reagan, men like Madison and Hamilton used the trappings of markets and liberty to describe what was in reality a strengthening and centralizing of power.

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We are all here interested in changing the laws.


Well then, you should probably understand how laws, real laws, come about.  The Greeks understood how they came about, because they had the same word for law and custom: nomos.  Real laws come about either through the discovery of natural laws or the consent and agreement of voluntary communities.  Saying the state makes laws is like saying a farmer makes meat.

The libertarian politics movement needs to understand history before it starts kissing babies.

- Josh
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Re: anarchists who want to shoot politicians
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2002, 02:19:50 pm »

Somebody back a bit ago here posted "The only good politician is a dead politician".


That person was a 16-year-old trolling our board from anti-state.com.  I sent him packing.
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Wild Pegasus

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Re:liberal whining about delaware
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2002, 02:23:02 pm »

Quote

Wild Pegasus had a great post regarding Delaware which has me seriously reconsidering that state. Unfortunately he has given up on the local political possibilities.


There are no possibilities in politics.  Politics is not the art of the possible, it is the art of conning people out of their money and liberty.

Quote

The reason the LP candidates don't win more legislative seats is that they don't try in races they can win. Many council and board seats go unopposed while the LP races after state and federal seats.


It doesn't matter if a Libertarian takes the role of school board, freeholder, planning authority or what not because those positions shouldn't even exist.  Libertarians in those roles have done absolutely nothing to advance the cause of liberty, and in fact have hurt it by associating the free ideas of libertarian political thought with "better management" of immoral structures instead of "these structures ought not exist".  How is a Libertarian going to say "I believe in liberty" when they are out kissing babies and shaking hands to gain a seat in the power structures that oppose liberty?

As for winning national races, former Libertarian presidential candidate Ron Paul is currently a representative from Texas in Congress.  Who outside of his district and the libertarian movement has ever heard of him?  How often is he on Crossfire?  Face the Nation?  O'Reilly Factor?  How often is he quoted in the papers, even though he has a unique point of view?  Divide his effectiveness by 10m for the local Libertarian Planning Authority Board member.

Quote

Though it may not apply to the Wild Pegasus, some anarchist types do have the attitude about shooting politicians.


It doesn't apply to me.  I have no qualms about killing politicians, but I also understand the history of "politics of the deed", which left-anarchists practiced at the turn of the 20th century.  It accomplished something terrific - the mass arrests of anyone associated with the anarchist movement, and the mass deportation of anarchist-related immigrants.  It's an inherently unworkable strategy and will likely get the entire libertarian movement thrown in military prison, shot, or worse.  Until the state has been delegitimized in the minds of people, shooting politicians will not work.

- Josh
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Elizabeth

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Re:liberal whining about delaware
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2002, 02:25:02 pm »

When has electoral politics ever moved toward liberty?


Your assessment is irrelevant, given that electoral politics is the chosen strategy of this project.  If you are here in an attempt to convince us all of the impracticality or immorality of the project, you are better off spending your energy elsewhere.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:liberal whining about delaware
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2002, 03:31:56 pm »


When has electoral politics ever moved toward liberty?  Once?  


New Zealand, 1980s.  Costa Rica, 2002.  Even the American Revolution occurred through colony-level electoral politics.

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The precious Constitution, which is an object of worship in the libertarian movement, was the first step in the centralization of power in the US


I'm not going to disagree with you there.

Quote

Well then, you should probably understand how laws, real laws, come about.  The Greeks understood how they came about, because they had the same word for law and custom: nomos.  Real laws come about either through the discovery of natural laws or the consent and agreement of voluntary communities.  Saying the state makes laws is like saying a farmer makes meat.


Which is correct.  Farmers do make meat; politicians do make laws: without farmers we wouldn't have meat, and without politicians we wouldn't have (positive) laws.  Don't confuse natural laws and positive laws, BTW.  A positive law may be unjust because it violates natural law.  However, all the philosophizing about natural law in the world won't change positive laws.  (This is not an argument against belief in natural law - I do believe in natural law, simply an argument for bifurcating the two.)


So what is your strategy for changing positive laws, if not electoral politics & the FSP?
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mdw

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Re:liberal whining about delaware
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2002, 11:17:25 pm »

There are no possibilities in politics.  Politics is not the art of the possible, it is the art of conning people out of their money and liberty.


I am unsure why one should focus on exclusively on politics when evaluaing the FSP. I view the FSP in a much broader context. 20,000 freedom-oriented individuals who move to a particular state in a coordinated manner will form the basis for a cultural change. The seed for a genuine culture of freedom will be germinated, regardless of the existing politics of the state. It is this culture of freedom which will create an environment where reform of the state will be possible. In the terminology of Davidson and Rees-Mogg, the customers of government will form a vocal minority, able to exert more influence than the (philosophically bankrupt) employees of government.

Politics is simply the social expression of the dominant ethical conclusions of the populace. Bring together 20,000 individuals who agree upon a particular ethical conclusion, and there will be a definite impact on the politics in that locale.

Regards,
mdw
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Re:liberal whining about delaware
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2003, 08:48:57 pm »

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There's simply nothing for the broader liberty movement to gain through electoral politics.
What do you propose which would work better? Revolution? Yeah, right. Tell that to the last bunch that tried it and got squashed like a bug under a tank track.
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Re:liberal whining about delaware
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2003, 05:10:23 pm »

You obviously have no clue as to what is possible from within the system. Try starting small at a local level. You can do a lot if you have at least a few others supporting you at the local level...

In regard to having "at least a few others supporting you at the local level," some of us have been discussing the idea of an FSP-based township or low population county strategy over on the Political Strategy forum.

Or click here.

This is definitely based on the idea of having a few like-minded folks to lean on for support.  It's also a good opportunity to demonstrate on a smaller level what we hope to accomplish on a larger level (ie., state government).  Sort of a "showroom model" approach.
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