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Author Topic: Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control  (Read 39031 times)

Michelle

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2003, 01:10:10 pm »


http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-10.htm
Quote
159:10 Sale Without License. – Any person who, without being licensed as herein provided, sells, advertises or exposes for sale, or has in his possession with intent to sell, pistols or revolvers shall be guilty of a class B felony if a natural person, or guilty of a felony if any other person.

Does that mean (as I suspect) that if you just advertise a handgun for sale in a newspaper, you are guilty of a felony?


Holy Chao, NH is worse than Florida!
This is the harshest gun law I've seen anywhere.
Even if you don't advertise... if you just sell a gun to your next-door neighbor, that is proof of your having possessed it with the intent to sell it, at least for a few minutes before the sale was consummated!

NH just dropped a couple of notches.



Perhaps you folks need to read a little deeper  :-\

Section 159:14
    159:14 Exemption. – None of the provisions of this chapter shall prohibit an individual not licensed under the provisions thereof who is not engaged in the business of selling pistols or revolvers from selling a pistol or revolver to a person licensed under this chapter or to a person personally known to him.
Source. 1967, 220:9, eff. Aug. 21, 1967.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-14.htm
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Michelle

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2003, 01:28:52 pm »

Holy Chao, NH is worse than Florida!
This is the harshest gun law I've seen anywhere.
Even if you don't advertise... if you just sell a gun to your next-door neighbor, that is proof of your having possessed it with the intent to sell it, at least for a few minutes before the sale was consummated!

NH just dropped a couple of notches.

Wyoming's law (which is the subject of this thread) is really MUCH worse.

Yes! Especially since my post above shows that they are concerned over a non-issue! The NH law they quoted was seriously out of context without reading the full chapter  :-\
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Karl

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2003, 01:34:44 pm »

Here's a listing of guns currently for private sale in a major Western newspaper.  Notice the types (an AK-47? a tommy gun?  oh my!)

Similarly, a classified search from NH's The Union Leader.

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JonM

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2003, 01:36:49 pm »

Here's a listing of guns currently for private sale in a major Western newspaper.  Notice the types (an AK-47? a tommy gun?  oh my!)

Similarly, a classified search from NH's The Union Leader.



What happens if you shoot a bear with a moose gun?
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Zack Bass

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2003, 01:43:10 pm »


  .... The NH law they quoted was seriously out of context without reading the full chapter  :-\


What could possibly change the fact that the quoted part makes it a Felony to sell a handgun to your neighbor or to offer to do so on your Home Page?  I mean, since you're the one who has read that part, please let me know how it does that.

Any State that can have such a Law that says that in one part, and another part that makes it inoperative, is a dangerous place for people like me who want to be able to read the Laws and count on their being enforced to the letter of the Law and no further.

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Zack Bass

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2003, 01:44:53 pm »


Similarly, a classified search from NH's The Union Leader.


I want everyone to read that and confirm that no pistols or revolvers are offered for sale, lest the seller be imprisoned for a Felony.

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Sebastian

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2003, 01:46:20 pm »

Yeah, my mind is starting to spin a bit after reading the "You can't sell them... but you can."
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Michelle

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2003, 01:59:23 pm »


  .... The NH law they quoted was seriously out of context without reading the full chapter  :-\


What could possibly change the fact that the quoted part makes it a Felony to sell a handgun to your neighbor or to offer to do so on your Home Page?  I mean, since you're the one who has read that part, please let me know how it does that.

Any State that can have such a Law that says that in one part, and another part that makes it inoperative, is a dangerous place for people like me who want to be able to read the Laws and count on their being enforced to the letter of the Law and no further.



What in the world are you talking about? I quoted the exemption above.

It isn't another "part." All NH pistol and revolver statutes are outlined in chapter 159 (which would likely all fit on a single sheet of paper).
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Zack Bass

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2003, 02:00:14 pm »



Any State that can have such a Law that says that in one part, and another part that makes it inoperative, is a dangerous place for people like me who want to be able to read the Laws and count on their being enforced to the letter of the Law and no further.


I suppose you have no problem with being fingerprinted and having the prints sent to the FBI.  ::)


I understand that many people object to this, but it's about five orders of magnitude smaller than being imprisoned for a Felony for offering a gun on a Web Site!!!  There's just no comparison.

I'm not typical, but I am far less concerned with Privacy than with Prison.  And I believe that most people's concern with Privacy is mainly to avoid possibly being convicted of violating some crummy Law they have a moral right to violate.  If the cops weren't allowed to imprison me for Possession, I wouldn't be so touchy about their peeking inside my car.

And as for me, sending my prints and photo to the FBI would be highly redundant.  They already have all that from my Florida Concealed Carry License, and over half a dozen arrests; and my trial, which took up a couple of days on Court TV, pretty well inured me to the prospect of the Feds knowing things about me.

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Zack Bass

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2003, 02:09:04 pm »


What in the world are you talking about? I quoted the exemption above.


The first Part says it's a Felony to possess the handgun intending to sell it; or to offer to sell it - to ANYONE!

The Exemption is ANOTHER PART that says you may sell a handgun to someone you know personally, or to a licensed dealer.  But it does not <<NOT>> say that you can offer to sell it to someone you know, only that you can sell it!  The first part, Felony Conviction for Offering, still stands!

In any case, the "Exemption" still does not allow me to sell a handgun to my neighbor (whom I do not know personally), or to advertise it on my Home Page.  Even with the broadest interpretation of this poorly-worded Exemption, this is a far harsher Law than even Florida's or any of the other Free State candidates I have heard of.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 02:12:37 pm by Zack Bass »
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Stumpy

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2003, 02:12:05 pm »

And as for me, sending my prints and photo to the FBI would be highly redundant.

Me too. The feds have had my prints for about 20 years.

My main concerns with Wyoming’s new carry conceal law are:
1) It was passed unanimously. Nobody in Wyoming’s House or Senate had a problem with fingerprinting their citizens and giving the fingerprints to the FBI.
2) It is recent. It cannot be blamed on the old guard. They passed the law just a few months ago.

I'm not typical

Zack, I vote this as the understatement of the year. ;D
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Zack Bass

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2003, 02:17:24 pm »


Wyoming's law (which is the subject of this thread) is really MUCH worse.


Oh.  What act would Wyoming's Law put you in prison for?

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JonM

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2003, 02:24:23 pm »

159:8 License to Sell. – The selectmen of a town and the chief of police of a city may grant licenses, the form of which shall be prescribed by the director of the division of state police, effective for not more than 3 years from date of issue, permitting the licensee to sell at retail pistols and revolvers subject to the following conditions, for breach of any of which the licensee shall be subject to forfeiture:
...

Emphasis mine.  This is a license to OPEN A STORE AND SELL GUNS.

If I own a handgun and wish to sell it to a person who is licensed to sell pistols and revolvers, I can.  If I wish to sell it to my friend Bob, I can.  I cannot sell it to someone I do not know, so that would indeed preclude me from placing it on a website to sell to any psychopath who knew how to surf the web.  If you wish to sell handguns on your website, you will have to get a license.

The entire chapter (159-A) on the purchase of shotguns and rifles was repealed.  So there seems to be no regulation of that, hence the classified ads for the rifles.

I thought this last item from the chapter was nice:

159:25 Voluntarily Surrendered Firearms. – No state agency shall operate a firearms "voluntary surrender and destroy'' program. Firearms which are voluntarily surrendered to a state agency shall be sold at public auction or kept by the state agency for its own use. Proceeds from firearms sold at public auction by the state shall be deposited in the general fund.

Another good one:
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159-D/159-D-2.htm

I particularly like the use of IF rather than When.

159-D:2 Confidentiality. –
    I. If the department of safety conducts criminal background checks under RSA 159-D:1, any records containing information pertaining to a potential buyer or transferee who is not found to be prohibited from receipt or transfer of a firearm by reason of state or federal law, which are created by the department of safety to conduct the criminal background check, shall be confidential and may not be disclosed by the department or any officers or employees to any person or to another agency. The department shall destroy any such records after it communicates the corresponding approval number to the licensee and, in any event, such records shall be destroyed within one day after the day of the receipt of the licensee's request.
    II. The department shall retain records containing any information pertaining to a potential buyer or transferee who is prohibited from receipt or transfer of a firearm for 3 years.
    III. Notwithstanding the provisions of this section, the department may maintain only a log of dates of requests for criminal background checks and unique approval numbers corresponding to such dates for an indefinite period.
    IV. Nothing in this section shall be construed to allow the department to maintain records containing the names of licensees who receive unique approval numbers or to maintain records of firearm transactions, including the names or other identification of licensees and potential buyers or transferees, including persons not otherwise prohibited by law from the receipt or possession of firearms.
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Rearden

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2003, 02:24:41 pm »


What in the world are you talking about? I quoted the exemption above.


The first Part says it's a Felony to possess the handgun intending to sell it; or to offer to sell it - to ANYONE!

The Exemption is ANOTHER PART that says you may sell a handgun to someone you know personally, or to a licensed dealer.  But it does not <<NOT>> say that you can offer to sell it to someone you know, only that you can sell it!  The first part, Felony Conviction for Offering, still stands!

In any case, the "Exemption" still does not allow me to sell a handgun to my neighbor (whom I do not know personally), or to advertise it on my Home Page.  Even with the broadest interpretation of this poorly-worded Exemption, this is a far harsher Law than even Florida's or any of the other Free State candidates I have heard of.



Zack, this is just like the infamous "Concord Blue Law Battle of 2003," in which you refused to acknowledge that the good people of Concord had repealed their archaic blue laws.

Read this very carefully:

Section 159:14
    159:14 Exemption. &#8211; None of the provisions of this chapter shall prohibit an individual not licensed under the provisions thereof who is not engaged in the business of selling pistols or revolvers from selling a pistol or revolver to a person licensed under this chapter or to a person personally known to him.
Source. 1967, 220:9, eff. Aug. 21, 1967.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-14.htm

Note how it says: "...under this chapter..."  This means that you may indeed sell a pistol or revolver to your neighbor, or anyone else that you know.  The point of this entire chapter is to make it illegal for licensed gun dealers to sell firearms to known felons.  That's it.  This doesn't affect regular folks at all.

Is it a bad law?  Sure it is.  But it's nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be, and it's nowhere near as bad as THE STATE OF WYOMING SENDING YOUR FINGERPRINTS TO THE FBI IF YOU WANT A CCW.
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Stumpy

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2003, 02:28:26 pm »

Wyoming's law (which is the subject of this thread) is really MUCH worse.
Oh.  What act would Wyoming's Law put you in prison for?


Michelle proved that the statute zxcv quoted didn’t apply to individuals.


We will assume that we are law-abiding citizens.


Which is worse:

In New Hampshire, someone selling a pistol much verify the identity of the person buying the gun.

In Wyoming, if you want to legally carry a weapon concealed, Wyoming will take your fingerprints and submit them to the FBI

« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 02:36:05 pm by Doug(stumpy) »
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