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Author Topic: Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control  (Read 39041 times)

Karl

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2003, 03:58:47 pm »

Since this is fast become the normal for all states the keep fingerprints ... this would not change the ranking at all.

George W. Bush couldn't have said it better!

This is not the case in New Hampshire, where they just passed a law that states otherwise.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2003, 05:18:24 pm by Karl Beisel »
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Kelton Baker

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2003, 04:14:39 pm »


Yes, we can get this law reversed, but that is one more fight and political capital that could better be spent on another issue.

I have had WY at #2 in my vote sequence, but this development may move it back. :o


Each and every state presents problems that some find near unacceptable.

For example, I found New Hampshire's laws about homeschooling absolutely disgusting.  If we move to NH, I will be working to end all of those regulations for sure, and rallying home-school families about to change the law.

Now, I could look at that as a bad expenditure of political capital, and something I wouldn't even have to worry about if we moved to Alaska or Idaho.  On the other hand, if it is a popular measure and we successfully get it repealed, it will be a rallying point to advance libertarian ideals; just the same other in other areas.

What I am concerned about are bad laws that are also highly popular.
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Penfist

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2003, 04:29:58 pm »

If we move to New Hampshire, I'll be campaigning against zoning laws, and you can count on my support with home schooling with minimal or no government interference.


Yes, we can get this law reversed, but that is one more fight and political capital that could better be spent on another issue.

I have had WY at #2 in my vote sequence, but this development may move it back. :o


Each and every state presents problems that some find near unacceptable.

For example, I found New Hampshire's laws about homeschooling absolutely disgusting.  If we move to NH, I will be working to end all of those regulations for sure, and rallying home-school families about to change the law.

Now, I could look at that as a bad expenditure of political capital, and something I wouldn't even have to worry about if we moved to Alaska or Idaho.  On the other hand, if it is a popular measure and we successfully get it repealed, it will be a rallying point to advance libertarian ideals; just the same other in other areas.

What I am concerned about are bad laws that are also highly popular.
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jgmaynard

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2003, 05:22:36 pm »

Palindrome and Exitus:

If our organization chooses New Hampshire, we will welcome you with open arms and would be delighted for you to help in the fight for greater liberty in P&Z laws and home schooling options.

It seems like every NH election is really just about taxes, and that's where we put most of our energies - it's one of the reasons we don't have a general sales or income tax - :D With additional resources and volunteers, we can make great strides in those two areas as well.

We would love to have both of you working with us. :)

JM
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MajesticLeo

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2003, 07:22:03 am »

Since I have been in the FBI's database since 1964 (when I enlisted in the Army) and the CIA database since 1969 (when I applied for a position with them, which I didn't get), this is no big deal to me.  They always know where to find me if they want me.  

BTW, most states that issue CCW permits require you to turn them in if you move to a state that has its own permit, regardless of whether you get one in the new state or not.  Such "non-resident" permits, like Florida and Texas have for instance, are only issued to residents of states without a permit of their own and revoked when you move to a state having a permit system.  So the idea of getting a Florida permit, for example, and using it after you move to Wyoming is not workable.

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Kelton Baker

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2003, 08:11:12 am »

Since I have been in the FBI's database since 1964 (when I enlisted in the Army) and the CIA database since 1969 (when I applied for a position with them, which I didn't get), this is no big deal to me.  They always know where to find me if they want me.  

BTW, most states that issue CCW permits require you to turn them in if you move to a state that has its own permit, regardless of whether you get one in the new state or not.  Such "non-resident" permits, like Florida and Texas have for instance, are only issued to residents of states without a permit of their own and revoked when you move to a state having a permit system.  So the idea of getting a Florida permit, for example, and using it after you move to Wyoming is not workable.


Yes, it is likely evey one of us in the FSP is in some FBI database, just some of us they don't have our prints yet, for whatever that is worth.  If your state requires fingerprints for a drivers license, and you already gave them, like in California, too late.

You make a good point that this is not a good work-around, to continue to use your state's permit when moving to a fingerprint state, like Wyoming, but also not impossible.  According to current laws, you may also choose to delay becoming a resident in some states:

HOW SOON YOU MUST OBTAIN DRIVERS LICENSE AFTER MOVING (and price)

Alaska, 90 days, pay $20
Delaware, 60 days, pay $12.50
Idaho, 90 days, pay $24.50
Montana, 120 days, pay $32 (lasts eight years)
New Hampshire, no formal requirement until after residency is established, unknown? (one unofficial source stated 30 days), pay $32
North Dakota, 60 days, pay $15
South Dakota, 30 days, (law is unclear), pay $8
Vermont, 6 months, pay $20
Wyoming, Must obtain drivers license upon becoming resident, no apparent specification of time limit, must pay $20
Maine, immediately upon becoming resident, $40  

The reason I bring this up is to show that there is also the possibility of a short delay, and the defining moment for officially becoming a new resident seems to be the drivers license.

Some states require you to surrender your permit 30 days after establishing residency in another state, (which would be referenced by the surrender of the D.L.) Tennessee is one, but more importantly, it appears not all require this, on the packing.org website, several individuals stated that they owned permits concurrently in several different states, so it depends, state-by-state.

According to this site, none of our candidate states require fingerprints for drivers licenses.

I live in California and still haven't given my prints because I still haven't become a resident after 2 years.  I do this by following a loophole in the law that allows me to be a resident in another state, though this also means I have to go through several inconveniences several times a year.  There are work-arounds, even in California, it all depends on how willing you are to do so.  I posted earlier that Idaho may have the most work-around options for the CCW permit, if we should go there.

Also remember that several hundred activists are probably going to be moving immediately after the vote,  those laws which other members find most objectionable are going to be targeted first.  Hundreds in state, working for change and thousands out-of-state writing e-mails, phonecalls and faxes concentrated on one single law might even change New Hampshire's objectionable homeschool laws in short order!


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Karl

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2003, 09:20:34 am »

Interesting:

The Wyoming legislature voted for this bill UNANIMOUSLY.  Every single senator and representative in the Wyoming legislature, including the otherwise relatively libertarian Keith Goodenough.

Yet, in NH, the legislature voted to PROHIBIT the taking of fingerprints.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 09:20:59 am by Karl Beisel »
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Stumpy

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2003, 09:50:03 am »

Interesting:

The Wyoming legislature voted for this bill UNANIMOUSLY.  Every single senator and representative in the Wyoming legislature, including the otherwise relatively libertarian Keith Goodenough.

Yet, in NH, the legislature voted to PROHIBIT the taking of fingerprints.

It was unanimous? OUCH!

This leads me to believe the Wyoming legislature will actively fight against the FSP.

I mean: if the Wyoming House and Senate voted unanimously to finger print concealed weapons carriers and to send the fingerprints to the FBI, will they welcome us?

New Hampshire will welcome us and will not force us to give our fingerprints to the FBI. ;D

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jgmaynard

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2003, 10:11:58 am »

New Hampshire will welcome us and will not force us to give our fingerprints to the FBI. ;D

In fact, NH forbids even the TAKING of fingerprints or pictures for CC (unless requested by the apllicant - probably similar to the tax me more fund ;)), even for the state's OWN use.... Never mind sending them off to our friends in the swamp. :)

JM
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jgmaynard

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2003, 10:32:08 am »

I have NEVER heard of a "required driver's license". I really don't like driving, and have gone years w/o a license.

I don't need no steenkin' license... :)

Now back to the title of this post....

When we first come into power especially the state house, we are going to need allies. It seems that at least on the gun rights issue, the NH house (which just FORBID such fingerprints by a 5:2 margin) is going to be much friendlier than a senate which voted unanimously (even the supposed "libertarian" senator) to send ALL CC permit applicants fingerprints to the FBI.

JM
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2003, 11:01:28 am »

Interesting:

The Wyoming legislature voted for this bill UNANIMOUSLY.  Every single senator and representative in the Wyoming legislature, including the otherwise relatively libertarian Keith Goodenough.

Yet, in NH, the legislature voted to PROHIBIT the taking of fingerprints.

Wow, this makes me wonder whether this was one of those bills that are sneaked through the house by leadership with a misleading title and subject.  In Texas, there was a bill to put fingerprints on the driver's licenses.  It was pushed heavily by leadership simply as a bill to "upgrade the computer databases," a mere formality.  The bill sailed through the state house and through committee in the senate.  Then the ACLU and RLC got wind of it and raised a big stink.  It was voted down by an 80-20% margin in the senate.  It could be that there was no one in WY to raise such a stink, so everyone voted for it without knowing what it was.  What this would indicate is not necessarily that every legislator in WY is a fascist, which would be bizarre & unbelievable for WY as for almost all of the states under consideration, but that there were no pro-liberty activist groups in the state to sniff this thing out.  That in itself is a bad sign, of course, because it means we'd be building a lot of the activism in WY from scratch, but it does make sense out of something that is otherwise totally inexplicable.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 11:02:08 am by JasonPSorens »
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Stumpy

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Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2003, 11:10:32 am »

Wow, this makes me wonder whether this was one of those bills that are sneaked through the house by leadership with a misleading title and subject.  

I don’t believe this to be the case. Below are the title and main description. Even the most cursory viewing would indicate that fingerprints would be gathered and sent to the FBI.

Either the Wyoming House AND Senate do not read even the main description of the bills they enact into law, or they unanimously agree to fingerprint their citizens who want to carry weapons concealed and give the fingerprints to the FBI. Of course, there is the possibility that some legislators are lazy and others favor this HORRIBLE law.

H.B. No. 0308  Concealed firearms permits-amendment.
Sponsored by: Representative(s) Luthi
AN ACT relating to weapons; providing for the submission of fingerprints to the federal bureau of
investigation as part of a background check for issuance of a concealed firearms permit; and
providing for an effective date.


 http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2003/titles/hb0308.htm
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 11:35:17 am by Doug(stumpy) »
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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2003, 12:34:01 pm »

Jason's theory might hold a little water, except for the fact the bill was short and straightforward. The reason I say this, is that it had the second highest bill number in the House, leading me to believe it was slipped in at the very end.

I have emailed the author, a Republican from Freedom, Wyoming (of all places) to ask him why he wrote it. Perhaps they got some pressure from Homeland Defense bureaucrats? Who knows, but we should be able to find out.

Apparently, if you are caught packing without a permit, it is a misdemeanor in Wyoming. Same as in NH, but in that state a second offence nets you a felony conviction, unlike Wyoming as far as I can tell.

While you NH advocates are making hay about this vote, perhaps you can explain the meaning of this NH law?

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-10.htm
Quote
159:10 Sale Without License. – Any person who, without being licensed as herein provided, sells, advertises or exposes for sale, or has in his possession with intent to sell, pistols or revolvers shall be guilty of a class B felony if a natural person, or guilty of a felony if any other person.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-8.htm
Quote
159:8 License to Sell. – The selectmen of a town and the chief of police of a city may grant licenses, the form of which shall be prescribed by the director of the division of state police, effective for not more than 3 years from date of issue, permitting the licensee to sell at retail pistols and revolvers subject to the following conditions, for breach of any of which the licensee shall be subject to forfeiture:
    I. The business shall be carried on only in the building designated in the license or at any organized sporting show or arms collectors' meeting sponsored by a chartered club or organization.
    II. The license or a copy thereof, certified by the issuing authority, shall be displayed on the premises where it can easily be read.
    III. No pistol, revolver, or other firearm shall be delivered to a purchaser not personally known to the seller or who does not present clear evidence of his identity; nor to a person who has been convicted of a felony.

Does that mean (as I suspect) that if you just advertise a handgun for sale in a newspaper, you are guilty of a felony?
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Zack Bass

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Re:Wyoming Votes UNANIMOUSLY to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2003, 12:41:01 pm »


http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-10.htm
Quote
159:10 Sale Without License. – Any person who, without being licensed as herein provided, sells, advertises or exposes for sale, or has in his possession with intent to sell, pistols or revolvers shall be guilty of a class B felony if a natural person, or guilty of a felony if any other person.

Does that mean (as I suspect) that if you just advertise a handgun for sale in a newspaper, you are guilty of a felony?


Holy Chao, NH is worse than Florida!
This is the harshest gun law I've seen anywhere.
Even if you don't advertise... if you just sell a gun to your next-door neighbor, that is proof of your having possessed it with the intent to sell it, at least for a few minutes before the sale was consummated!

NH just dropped a couple of notches.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 12:49:14 pm by Zack Bass »
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Kelton Baker

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Re:Wyoming Votes to Cooperate with FBI in Gun Control
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2003, 12:59:54 pm »

HOW SOON YOU MUST OBTAIN DRIVERS LICENSE AFTER MOVING (and price)

Alaska, 90 days, pay $20
Delaware, 60 days, pay $12.50
Idaho, 90 days, pay $24.50
Montana, 120 days, pay $32 (lasts eight years)
New Hampshire, no formal requirement until after residency is established, unknown? (one unofficial source stated 30 days), pay $32
North Dakota, 60 days, pay $15
South Dakota, 30 days, (law is unclear), pay $8
Vermont, 6 months, pay $20
Wyoming, Must obtain drivers license upon becoming resident, no apparent specification of time limit, must pay $20
Maine, immediately upon becoming resident, $40  

Not sure where you got these numbers, exitus, but a NH drivers license now costs $50 and lasts 5 years (I just renewed mine in May, so I know).

I got these numbers by going to each and every DMV website online and looking at the numbers, I originally posted this Jan. 12, 2003 on the More and Other Criteria thread... so this makes sense.




Holy Chao, NH is worse than Florida!
This is the harshest gun law I've seen anywhere.

Is it now a free-for all attack on one of my favorite states (but not most favorite) ?

Is the attack- pendulum swinging the other way now?

O.K., I'll join-in... this once...

Boy it sure will be nice when this vote is all over:)


Here's a listing of guns currently for private sale in a major Western newspaper.  Notice the types (an AK-47? a tommy gun?  oh my!)

Classified Search results...
438
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 01:03:18 pm by exitus... »
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