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Author Topic: Property Tax  (Read 17170 times)

Pat McCotter

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2011, 08:35:43 am »

Other two are county and state IIRC. They are minimal compared to school and town budgets.

DOH! :-[ Thanks John.
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LoveFreedomAndLiberty

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2011, 10:52:49 am »

The topic of property tax in New Hampshire was discussed on Free Talk Live on September 28 a little bit.  I was glad this topic was raised for discussion since the cost of the property tax in NH is a concern for me.   

I really don't like that if I don't pay property tax on land or a house I purchased that it can be taken away.  I feel once I purchase the property/home that should be the end of fees and cost (other than the maintenance, improvements I choose to do).  Property tax almost kinda seems like a punishment for owning property, in my opinion/feelings.   

I wonder if anyone has ever been forced out of their home, off of their property, or become homeless due to having someone (creditor, government, etc) take their home away?

I still would prefer no taxes, but if I must pay something on an individual/family level, I prefer sales tax.  I can buy a cow to prevent having to buy milk, or grow vegetables myself to prevent buying them, and therefore limit what I contribute to sales tax.  A sales tax seems to put choice in my hands a little more, in my opinion.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2011, 11:50:03 am »

Its something you agree to when you purchase.

Property taxes are traditional based on all inhabitants paying them either directly or through rent... and all inhabitants having their Rights secured. Prior to the change, property taxes used to pay for everything... and included assessment of all property including livestock.

The State actually functions off from sales and income taxes... and uses those to subsidize local decisions.

Homes and other property can always be removed by a creditor... except where the State intervenes on bankruptcy laws.
As for losing a home to property tax... its possible; but not likely. The property tax codes have a specific protection for those unable to afford them.
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WendellBerry

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2011, 12:10:58 pm »

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A sales tax seems to put choice in my hands a little more, in my opinion.

A sales tax and income tax are specific taxes on one's labor.

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Property taxes are traditional based on all inhabitants paying them either directly or through rent...

There is a way to devise property taxes so that they can not be passed onto renters - by shifting off of capital (buildings) and purely onto the unimproved (no labor involved) locational value which is socially created.

Now that would be libertopia for renters...no income, no sales, no property taxes - EQUAL freedom!
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freedomroad

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2011, 01:08:56 pm »

The topic of property tax in New Hampshire was discussed on Free Talk Live on September 28 a little bit.  I was glad this topic was raised for discussion since the cost of the property tax in NH is a concern for me.   

I really don't like that if I don't pay property tax on land or a house I purchased that it can be taken away.  I feel once I purchase the property/home that should be the end of fees and cost (other than the maintenance, improvements I choose to do).  Property tax almost kinda seems like a punishment for owning property, in my opinion/feelings.   

I wonder if anyone has ever been forced out of their home, off of their property, or become homeless due to having someone (creditor, government, etc) take their home away?

I still would prefer no taxes, but if I must pay something on an individual/family level, I prefer sales tax.  I can buy a cow to prevent having to buy milk, or grow vegetables myself to prevent buying them, and therefore limit what I contribute to sales tax.  A sales tax seems to put choice in my hands a little more, in my opinion.

If it was a discussion on FTL, likely it wasn't anywhere near as informative as the discussion on this thread.

If you don't want to pay property taxes in NH, you don't have to.  Just move to a community where home owners don't have to pay property taxes and continue to encourage the community to function in that way.

If you want to pay very little property taxes in NH, either move to a community where people generally pay very little property taxes or own taxable property of very low value.

The great thing about moving to NH is that you are moving to NH.  You get to decide where in NH you want to live.  You get to decide how you want to live (home, trailer, community housing, camper, renter and so on.)

Another option is renting.  For example, I rent a single room.  My total rent for a year is somewhere around 3300 a year, which is the going market rate for such a room.  My estimated total property taxes paid during the year, I don't know, maybe 10% - 15% percent of that amount.  So my property taxes for a year are $450 give or take $200.  I don't consider that unreasonable considering all of the government services I get (roads, fire protection, city hall, sidewalks... even if I may not want them.)  I live in one of the higher property tax communities in NH.

As for a sales tax, a state general sales tax would destroy the economy of NH and cause chaos.  It's a very unpopular idea.  NH is currently one of 4 states that doesn't have a general sales tax or allow localities to create one (NH, DE, MT, OR.)  That is a huge advantage compared to the surrounding states (NY, ME, VT, MA, CT, RI.)  People plan shopping trips to or though NH months in advance from all of those states.
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WendellBerry

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2011, 01:22:20 pm »

Quote
Another option is renting.  For example, I rent a single room.  My total rent for a year is somewhere around 3300 a year, which is the going market rate for such a room.  My estimated total property taxes paid during the year, I don't know, maybe 10% - 15% percent of that amount.  So my property taxes for a year are $450 give or take $200.  I don't consider that unreasonable considering all of the government services I get (roads, fire protection, city hall, sidewalks... even if I may not want them.)

There would be a way to advocating paying zero in property taxes via renting...

Just shift property taxes off of buildings and fully onto locational values.

What happens?

The supply of housing increases (no disincentive to build) and as a result, your rent goes down 10-15%, so your landlord can't pass any property tax along.
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LoveFreedomAndLiberty

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2011, 02:03:56 pm »

I am not endorsing a sales tax.  I don't want ANY taxes.  If taxes are going to be forced upon me,  I just feel that I can limit my sales tax by buying less.  I can't make my property tax go down because other people decide the value of home/property and other people decide how much I should pay the government to continue living on that property.  So, it feels like other people still have too much control and input in my life and pursuit of happiness.

Good point about shoppers and no sales tax.  Ultimately, I would like to see no taxes.  I wonder if a private company could operate a public bus, fire department, etc. at a lower cost?

Another issue, paying $5,000 on a $250,000 (just a guess) property just seems out of budget for some people.

What if someone just wants to live on a private farm and they live off the land.....they might be forced to go work a job outside of the home just to pay property tax?  Force in any capacity (economic, etc.) never equals freedom, in my opinion.  NH does seem to be more interested in freedom and that is why it is attracting so many freedom lovers.

Where are the specific places with NO or low property tax in NH?  Do those places have a homeowner's association?  Is it rural, urban, suburban?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 02:30:56 pm by LoveFreedomAndLiberty »
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2011, 02:48:16 pm »

Usually an HOA will cost you more.
Larger parcels of land have the ability to enter Current Use... so there is an offset. Farming is a business... so PT is considered a business expense by them.

I guess it depends on size and where your looking. But basically home/land values adjust to local income levels... and currently are still adjusting downward.

My town doesn't have a bus... and the fire department has the COMSTAR fund, which means it operates like a hybrid private company.

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WendellBerry

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2011, 02:50:13 pm »

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What if someone just wants to live on a private farm and they live off the land.....they might be forced to go work a job outside of the home just to pay property tax?

Locational values are skewed tremendously by the scarcity of housing in urban areas imposed by disincentives and by public infrastructure to rural areas.

Make the changes I suggest and there will be locations in rural areas now that have value, that will lose value and make it much more likely that you can reasonably homestead...
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2011, 03:05:42 pm »

Quote
A sales tax seems to put choice in my hands a little more, in my opinion.

A sales tax and income tax are specific taxes on one's labor.

Quote
Property taxes are traditional based on all inhabitants paying them either directly or through rent...

There is a way to devise property taxes so that they can not be passed onto renters - by shifting off of capital (buildings) and purely onto the unimproved (no labor involved) locational value which is socially created.

Now that would be libertopia for renters...no income, no sales, no property taxes - EQUAL freedom!
They wouldn't have 'skin in the game' as far as voting... and the landlords would detain the excess savings. Renters aren't taxed directly.

Quote
What if someone just wants to live on a private farm and they live off the land.....they might be forced to go work a job outside of the home just to pay property tax?

Locational values are skewed tremendously by the scarcity of housing in urban areas imposed by disincentives and by public infrastructure to rural areas.

Make the changes I suggest and there will be locations in rural areas now that have value, that will lose value and make it much more likely that you can reasonably homestead...
Obviously theoretical.
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freedomroad

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2011, 03:13:03 pm »

I am not endorsing a sales tax.  I don't want ANY taxes.

That sounds nice.  I'll help you to work towards lower taxes in NH.

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I can't make my property tax go down because other people decide the value of home/property and other people decide how much I should pay the government to continue living on that property.

As I tried to explain in my previous post, you can.

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I wonder if a private company could operate a public bus, fire department, etc. at a lower cost?

There are private buses in NH.  There is at least one private fire department.  Most of the fire departments are volunteer.  Most public buses loss money so they could be privatized but the price of a ride may go up or who knows, maybe more than double in some cases.  I like to deal more with the here and now than what is possible to do if I was a mayor, though.  There, I haven't put much thought into that and don't plan to unless it becomes a changeable issue.

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What if someone just wants to live on a private farm and they live off the land.....they might be forced to go work a job outside of the home just to pay property tax?


Not if you are a good farmer.  Farm land in NH is taxed differently.

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Where are the specific places with NO or low property tax in NH?  Do those places have a homeowner's association?  Is it rural, urban, suburban?


They are extremely rural areas.  Some of the low/no property rate tax places in NH have associations where you end up paying substantial fees.

I posted more about them earlier.  Feel free to review that post, http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=24037.msg267607#msg267607
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time4liberty

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2011, 07:15:40 pm »

Its something you agree to when you purchase.

Um, no. Perhaps you'd also say that when folks started businesses in Chicago they "agreed" to pay al capone's "protection" racket, or that if you live in ms13 gang territory you "agree" to have your house shot up?

Property taxes are extortion, plain and simple. If you own a house and sell it to me, at no point does the state of nh own it, nor do they have any right to demand money, on threat of stealing it.

I also share the preference for sales taxes -- but overall, taxes are far lower in nh than elsewhere. Most other places have property tax AND incone/sales tax.
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time4liberty

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2011, 07:20:45 pm »

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Another option is renting.  For example, I rent a single room.  My total rent for a year is somewhere around 3300 a year, which is the going market rate for such a room.  My estimated total property taxes paid during the year, I don't know, maybe 10% - 15% percent of that amount.  So my property taxes for a year are $450 give or take $200.  I don't consider that unreasonable considering all of the government services I get (roads, fire protection, city hall, sidewalks... even if I may not want them.)

There would be a way to advocating paying zero in property taxes via renting...

Just shift property taxes off of buildings and fully onto locational values.

What happens?

The supply of housing increases (no disincentive to build) and as a result, your rent goes down 10-15%, so your landlord can't pass any property tax along.

This certainly would increase construction, and housing supply, but prices would still be higher than if no tax existed, and the cost is still being passed on. It would be a huge boon to millionaires with mansions, and a disaster for farmers, loggers, etc. The boon to rich folks is fine with me, but the farmers getting it in the shorts part, not so much.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 07:24:54 pm by time4liberty »
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2011, 09:45:53 pm »

Its something you agree to when you purchase.

Um, no. Perhaps you'd also say that when folks started businesses in Chicago they "agreed" to pay al capone's "protection" racket, or that if you live in ms13 gang territory you "agree" to have your house shot up?

Property taxes are extortion, plain and simple. If you own a house and sell it to me, at no point does the state of nh own it, nor do they have any right to demand money, on threat of stealing it.

I also share the preference for sales taxes -- but overall, taxes are far lower in nh than elsewhere. Most other places have property tax AND incone/sales tax.
Um, Yes. Its one of the contractual items of the transfer of deed.
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time4liberty

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Re: Property Tax
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2011, 08:09:19 am »

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Um, Yes. Its one of the contractual items of the transfer of deed.

And if I try to transfer a deed without that "contractual item", the government will not only immediately consider my ownership illegitimate, but will prosecute me if I try to defend said ownership.

Perhaps this will help you, John. Imagine that a private company started acting the way the state does. Suppose, in some small town, Wal-mart decided that they had the sole right to define property ownership. If anyone claimed to own anything without sending wal-mart cash on a regular basis, they'd send men with guns to take the property, and hand it to someone who would pay them. If anyone tried to voluntarily trade their property without making the buyer "agree" to send walmart cash both immediately and on an ongoing basis, walmart would refuse to recognize the new owner, and would send their men after both the old and new owners. If the new owner tried to defend their property, wal-mart would lock them in a cell, and take the property.

Is that behavior cool with you John? Would you say that in this case, Wal-mart is acting like they own the whole town? I would.
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