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Author Topic: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?  (Read 23637 times)

"Hagrid"

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What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« on: June 30, 2011, 01:36:12 pm »

Request for short but good answers - best answers will be used...
I figured the most productive approach would to get folks to propose answers, and compile the outstanding answers.

Help people like Dem Rep. Marjorie Porter understand... She asks "If the freestaters have their way, get all their legislation passed, and 'dismantle' NH's state government as is their stated goal, what will New Hampshire be like in 20 or 30 years?  If the only role of government in to protect life, property, and freedom, will we still have:
 
--a court system?  How will it be funded?  What types of cases will it handle?
--public defenders?  If not, will the poor be denied counsel because they can't afford it?
--public schools?  How will they be funded?  If no public schools, how will families educate their children?   
--economic protection for people who lose their jobs?  If not, what options will be available to them to keep it together for their families until they find another job?
--support for the disabled or mentally ill?
--Will doctors still have to be board certified before they practice?  If not, will anyone be able to practice medicine?
--Will lawyers still have to pass the bar?  If not, how will we know we have hired someone who is qualified?
--Will childcare providers have background checks?  If not, how will we know we're not leaving our children with a predator?

Russell Kanning

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2011, 01:42:22 pm »

lawyers? won't we have run them out by then?

It will be a lot like it was in 1600's.
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freedomroad

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2011, 05:59:51 pm »

Quote
If the only role of government in to protect life, property, and freedom, will we still have:
 
--a court system?  YES How will it be funded? SAME What types of cases will it handle? SAME
--public defenders? YES If not, will the poor be denied counsel because they can't afford it?
--public schools? YES How will they be funded? DEPENDS ON THE TOWN If no public schools, how will families educate their children? DEPENDS ON WHAT FAMILIES WANT   
--economic protection for people who lose their jobs? YES If not, what options will be available to them to keep it together for their families until they find another job?
--support for the disabled or mentally ill? YES
--Will doctors still have to be board certified before they practice? YES If not, will anyone be able to practice medicine?
--Will lawyers still have to pass the bar? YES If not, how will we know we have hired someone who is qualified?
--Will childcare providers have background checks? YES If not, how will we know we're not leaving our children with a predator?

That's my opinion, anyway.
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MengerFan

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2011, 06:22:03 pm »

How will the women be impregnated if they are not raped?
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Russell Kanning

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2011, 09:21:08 pm »

How will the women be impregnated if they are not raped?
I was just as scared as you, by love joy peace and stuffs answers.
I recently came across "background checks" again. It seems really funny to ask the government if someone is trustworthy. Would you have trusted the SS's or KGB's answers to that question? I also don't trust homeland securities answers or the fbi.

Since her question was what it would look like IF freestaters dismantled the state government (that is what she asked right?), then I don't see how the current court system would not also be gone and other totally different looking stuph in it's place.

Schooling would look totally different. I guess it would be a throwback to before the government got involved, just with newer technology.
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

John Edward Mercier

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2011, 05:57:15 am »

Tell her legislation can never supercede the constitution.
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cchris

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 06:14:19 am »


 Of course people have no desire to "dismantle" the mechanisms that serve to help the needy or certify a professional, we just want it handled in some other way than it is currently. The pol who made these comments doesn't seem prepared to answer questions so much as berate those who would cast doubt on the nanny state.
 In New England especially, most of the laws that covered her concerns were on the books 200 years ago. But governments have a tendency to think they must pass legislation continuously.
 As for helping those in need, that is a tough issue sometimes. We all like to think that we would be more than willing to lend a hand to those in need, but I am also a realist. Most of the people I see with "will work for food signs" in fact won't. Homelessness is rarely the norm for those who have good mental health and no addictions, and it is frustrating to see good money after bad thrown at "helping" people who mostly want to be were they are. This doesn't mean that I want a mother with children to stay on the streets, but I also don't want to be forced to pay for rehabilitating an individual that has no intention of going through with it. Before you judge me cruel, I speak from personal experience. I think the answer is something like this. Leave this to the local government. The people in the affected community know the difference between freeloading and tragedy. An unfortunate accident that leaves a family without a breadwinner deserves attention. A guy hitching in from down south for the summer does not.
 Regarding doctors, lawyers, and professional regulation, I think the AMA and Bar associations set most of the standards that states use anyway, correct?
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Alex Libman

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2011, 01:51:11 am »

[...]  She asks "If the freestaters have their way, get all their legislation passed, and "dismantle" NH's
state government as is their stated goal, what will New Hampshire be like in 20 or 30 years?

Free Staters must realize that New Hampshire's million-plus non-libertarians ("palestinians", as I call them) aren't going to disappear, not even in 20 or 30 years.  The goals of our project must therefore focus on localism, that is on reducing homogenization politics at State / Federal / World level, and on establishing libertarian enclaves where the services formerly monopolized by coercive government brutes would be provided on a voluntary basis instead.  Another thing FSP can accomplish is to nurture the seedlings of a libertarian culture that for now exists under government rule but is ready to be "replanted" somewhere else (ex. seasteading).

So there won't be one picture of New Hampshire 20-30 years from now but several, with some highly socialist towns (ex. Keene) exhibiting relatively little actual change, while some places in the north would become hotbeds of new economic activity.


If the only role of government in to protect life, property, and freedom, will we still have:

--a court system?  How will it be funded?  What types of cases will it handle?

The criminal court system would likely be the last coercive monopoly to be opened to direct polycentric competition, and this transition would probably take more than 20-30 years, even in the most libertarian places on earth.  What is likely to happen sooner is a gradual emergence of free market arbitration for non-criminal disputes, and ever-more neighborhood policies being agreed to on an explicit contractual basis rather than being forced down individuals' throats as "municipal law".


--public defenders?  If not, will the poor be denied counsel because they can't afford it?

This question cannot be effectively answered without first at least summarizing the paradigm shifts presented by the Anarcho-Capitalist theory of jurisprudence, by emerging technologies, and by a rational analysis of objective reality in general.

When society is finally ready for polycentric law, this would involve giving victims (or their designated trustees / inheritors / next of kin) a significant amount of control over the means of prosecution.  An accusation that someone is guilty of violating the natural economic equilibrium known as the Non-Aggression Principle is essentially a claim that reciprocal violence can justly be used against the accused for the purpose of holding an investigation and obtaining just restitution for the victims.  The burden of proof is on the prosecution to sufficiently document the guilt and the degree of restitution that must be paid by the guilty party, and/or possibly to prove that the guilty party is at present not capable of acting as a self-owning Rational Economic Actor and should therefore be incarcerated.

This can only be done on the basis of reason, and backed by open and objective evidence that is beyond "reasonable doubt" - not just that of a government-picked jury acting under ancient rituals of "common law", but of a 21st century standard of how information can be gathered, sorted, and commented upon.  Current "open source" / collaborative projects like Wikipedia make for an effective analogy for how "trial information systems" of the future are to be organized, piecing together bits of evidence and establishing their trustworthiness to evaluate the probabilities of what actually took place.  One difference would be that most of the inputs in such an information system would come from "expert witnesses", both paid and unpaid, who are particularly knowledgeable and accountable in their fields of expertise, and who would compete on the basis of their reputation for accuracy and impartiality.  This would include the ever-growing high-tech fields by which evidence can be acquired and analyzed, including networked grids of video camera feeds (streamed live on the Internet for verifiability), satellite tracking, air / water / soil pollution probes, etc, etc, etc.  

The costs of any trial are likely to involve fees for expert witnesses to conduct their research and submit their evidence (although some would be willing to do this for free, for same reasons why programmers contribute to "open source" projects), the possible expense to hire PDA services to act as the muscle of the justice system (which may not be required in cases where the accused is concerned with his reputation and wants to clear his name), and of course the cost of hiring one or more independent arbitration agency to weigh the evidence and render a verdict.  A justice system that is based on science and pure reason rather than on rituals and traditions is likely to reduce the costs quite a bit, as anyone would be able to participate in it on the basis of one's critical thinking skills rather than any elitist lawyerly know-how.  It would seem natural that each party would pay the cost of their own witnesses with the losing party paying the shared costs of the trial, but there can be other possibilities as well.  In addition to paying out-of-pocket or obtaining credit, other possible sources of funding the trial, by all parties involved, could include various types of insurance policies, neighborhood justice trusts, mutual aid societies, charities, etc.

Without any liability limitations to shield the prosecution, the victims would be criminally responsible for any miscarriage of justice that takes place, and many victims would probably be interested in "selling" their potential "restitution shares" to professional prosecutors who specialize in assessing the risks and costs of this legal endeavor.  This financial claim to potential restitution creates an investment vehicle through which the trial, the incarceration, and other related costs can be funded.  Absence of liability limitations, which governmental institutions are presently allowed by some illogical "divine right", would make the prosecution itself concerned with having a fair trial, lest innocence proven at a later time would make them guilty of abduction and theft.  A defendant looking to wholly clear his name would also not want to get off on a technicality and debunk all accusations point-by-point.  An indisputably fair trial should therefore in both parties best interest!
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Alex Libman

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2011, 01:52:48 am »

(Blah, 10K chars already...  I know you said "short" answers, but, bah, I haven't had a good AnCap rant in... well, days!)


--public schools?  How will they be funded?  If no public schools, how will families educate their children?

The government brainwashing centers / part-time torture prisons called "public schools" are horrible and counter-productive institutions!  I could learn everything taught in a week of schooling by having an hour of free Internet access instead, and be able to revisit all of the reference materials at any future point of my life.  School provides nothing but mind-numbing boredom and oversocialization - not just the tyranny of the teachers but the tyranny of the peers, who, like chickens crowded into tiny cages, peck each-other to pieces...  The government has no incentive for an effective education system - competent and creative individuals who are capable of independent rational thought are any government's worst nightmare!  And even if it did have an incentive, thought is a process that can only take place by the initiative of the individual mind - government adds nothing to the equation except force, and no one can force a mind to think!

The only excuse or claim to benevolent intentions you could make for public schools is not to describe them as centers of learning, which most clearly they are not, but as a means of subsidizing parenthood by taking the brats off their hands for a few hours ~180 days a year.  But even this function of schooling is now made obsolete by emerging technologies: children can be monitored and kept safe at home while parents are away at work through use of intelligent home monitoring software (perhaps integrated with the same software that educates them), video camera grids, GPS tracking implants, and neighborhood rapid response teams.  And ultimately children need to learn responsibility of being accountable for their actions, rather than being coercively monitored all day till the age of 18!

Parents / guardians (with the optional advice of child development consultants) can customize an ideal combination of structured online learning, self-guided study, tutoring, creative / hobbyist projects, family-to-family (F2F) resource sharing, apprenticeship, and/or paid employment to meet each individual child's needs and ambitions.  Some of those things cost money, but this difference is a small and shrinking factor in the quality of education that a person is able to obtain.  Every possible career track can have an on-ramp that can be started from an early age, with older students able to finance their education through part-time work and/or microcredit.  Materially speaking, all it takes to educate a child is a $300 laptop / tablet and access to the Internet, with the price of both dropping to the point where any child without these things would soon be flooded with an overabundance of charity.  It also takes parental concern, but that is yet another thing that government interventionism has diminished, as parents now look to the state rather than to their children to provide a financial safety net for them in their old age.  


--economic protection for people who lose their jobs?  If not, what options will be available to them to keep it together for their families until they find another job?

Let them eat beans.  Seriously.  The bulk cost of a crude but healthy diet, clean water, vitamin supplements, and minimal shelter that a billion people in the "third world" would envy is only a few dollars per person per day.  New Hampshire currently has the per-capita GDP of $47,385 (which would grow more quickly with more economic freedom) - that's more than enough to provide enough voluntary charity and micro-credit to support the small fraction of the population who fall into total financial ruin.  A society that has evolved beyond the welfare-statist delusion that "a claim to benevolent intentions justifies violence" would still not be immune to the emotions of compassion, but will channel them toward a culture of non-governmental charity, with Scrooges still finding their reputation a notch diminished.  No longer would people waste their energy on endless red-team / blue-team mud-flinging, but they would show off their politics by what charities they donate to instead!

Don't like beans?  Then spend a few hours a day pursuing education and/or employment, and your quality of life will inevitably improve.  Microcredit would likely be available at the first sign of ambition - after all, what can make for a better long-term investment than a human being?


--support for the disabled or mentally ill?

See above - and charity campaigns that aid these people would probably be better funded than those for the "able-bodied poor".


--Will doctors still have to be board certified before they practice?  If not, will anyone be able to practice medicine?

Doctors are chosen by their patients, who generally choose them with the intention of getting as much competence and accountability as they can get for their dollar.  Consumer feedback / peer ranking reputation systems and certification authorities -- that compete on the basis of their reputation, objectivity, and thoroughness of their evaluation methods -- would yield much better results than blind faith in some centralized one-size-fits-all government barrier, which in comparison is inflexible and inevitably corrupt.


--Will lawyers still have to pass the bar?  If not, how will we know we have hired someone who is qualified?

See above.


--Will childcare providers have background checks?  If not, how will we know we're not leaving our children with a predator?

See above.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 02:08:38 am by Alex Libman »
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Porcsmouth

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2011, 01:14:40 am »

[...]  She asks "If the freestaters have their way, get all their legislation passed, and "dismantle" NH's
state government as is their stated goal, what will New Hampshire be like in 20 or 30 years?

Free Staters must realize that New Hampshire's million-plus non-libertarians ("palestinians", as I call them)

lol. So I'm not the only person that sees parallels between our endeavor and  the Zionist project in the Middle East.
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mauiguy

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2011, 06:07:25 am »

[...]  She asks "If the freestaters have their way, get all their legislation passed, and "dismantle" NH's
state government as is their stated goal, what will New Hampshire be like in 20 or 30 years?

Free Staters must realize that New Hampshire's million-plus non-libertarians ("palestinians", as I call them)

lol. So I'm not the only person that sees parallels between our endeavor and  the Zionist project in the Middle East.

Yeah, except for the murdered women and children, rampant theft of property and bulldozed activists...
You know, other than running the world's largest open air prison full of folks who have committed no crime, it's pretty close.

WAT?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 06:09:31 am by mauiguy »
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Porcsmouth

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2011, 04:14:36 pm »

[...]  She asks "If the freestaters have their way, get all their legislation passed, and "dismantle" NH's
state government as is their stated goal, what will New Hampshire be like in 20 or 30 years?

Free Staters must realize that New Hampshire's million-plus non-libertarians ("palestinians", as I call them)

lol. So I'm not the only person that sees parallels between our endeavor and  the Zionist project in the Middle East.

Yeah, except for the murdered women and children, rampant theft of property and bulldozed activists...
You know, other than running the world's largest open air prison full of folks who have committed no crime, it's pretty close.

WAT?

I knew this would start a war. The Middle East always does.

The early Zionists started by buying property fair and square from the locals. Hopefully, since we don't aim to create a modern democratic nation-state, we won't need to maintain a numerical majority of 'citizens,' and therefore will be able to deal with the locals on level terms.

Also, hopefully the locals (I call them Fisher Cats after the Manchester baseball team and the fact that fisher cats hunt porcupines in the wild) will not be lobbing rockets on our houses or strapping bombs to their chests and walking into our movie theaters.

But I'm sure that's for another thread.
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Alex Libman

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011, 12:02:24 am »

[...]  She asks "If the freestaters have their way, get all their legislation passed, and "dismantle" NH's
state government as is their stated goal, what will New Hampshire be like in 20 or 30 years?

Free Staters must realize that New Hampshire's million-plus non-libertarians ("palestinians", as I call them)

lol. So I'm not the only person that sees parallels between our endeavor and  the Zionist project in the Middle East.

The only constructive reason to draw this analogy is to make sure we learn all possible lessons from how brutal and horrible that situation has turned out, so that those mistakes are never repeated...

There have been many Zionists who bought land with their own funds prior to the imposition of the state of Israel (though it could still be said that those transactions weren't 100% voluntary either, especially as violence, or the threat of violence, escalated).  In a rational world this process could have continued on a non-violent capitalist basis, as it would have attracted more than enough voluntary capital to buy up enough land to create plenty of Jewish charter cities and neighborhoods to resemble the Israel of today.  All of this could have been done with each ethnic / religious group following their own laws on their own privately owned land, as all of the religions involved have a significant degree of respect for Property Rights, with no common government between them except the Non-Aggression Principle.  Then fanatics on both sides would be down to about 1% of the population (as good as it gets), relatively little blood would be spilled, and the tourist attractions / trade hub potential in that part of the world, combined with relative economic freedom, could have made that land as wealthy as Singapore or UAE.

Free Staters should focus on buying up adjacent land, starting / investing in local businesses, creating libertarian communities that are free of municipal monopolies, and eventually pressing for ever-greater independence / total sovereignty.  Protesting against popular laws is particularly silly, as in a free society those people would still create those laws on a contractual level instead.  Trying to achieve secession based on broad municipal / county / state boundaries, without individual consent of all property owners therein, if successful would just lead to trouble.


</off-topic>
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Porcsmouth

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 01:03:23 am »

I said I see parallels, not that I wholeheartedly endorse the State of Israel. I don't endorse any monopolist state!

Agree with many of your points, Alex, though I am reluctant to denounce any strategies that are peaceful and liberty-oriented.
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rossby

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Re: What will New Hamphire be like in 20 or 30 years?
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2011, 01:26:20 am »

But governments have a tendency to think they must pass legislation continuously.

Supply and demand.

Regardless of the public's demand for new laws, the supply of legislators sent to the capitol each year remains relatively constant.
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