Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: This is distressing  (Read 9772 times)

ZionCurtain

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
  • I'm a llama!
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2003, 08:36:48 pm »

Give yourself more credit my friend.  Your talented intelligent and believe in freedom, my thought is you can make more than enough in NH to compensate for any increase in the cost of living.

And you will have friends close by who feel as you do!

Dave
Thanks for the compliment. Actually I am common folk, that is why it is important to me and my wife and 3 kids.
Logged

jenlee

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 198
  • Freedom Lover
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2003, 10:01:34 pm »

Wal-Mart greeters are cool people. They are the first people you usually see when you enter the store. And a smile and a polite hello seems to make spending money all that much easier. And we all spend money at places like that.

So if you do become a greeter cool all stores should have greeters.  :)

Well, being as I am retired on a "fixed income", it would certainly be a major "pay cut" for me.  Oh well, guess I could always be a Wal-Mart greeter.
Logged
Choices. One, plenty of room to expand. Two, freeze em and stack em like cords of wood, thaw em out to vote and then refreeze em. Choices.

Dave Mincin

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2099
  • I'm a llama!
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2003, 10:25:03 am »

Majesticleo,

I spent a day traveling around NH with Doug and Trevor, looking at property for sale and checking out the locals.

Much of central and northern NH has many retired folks and  much more affortable land than  the south. Sure you could find something affordable and to your liking in that area if you like country living.

Doug and Trevor spent each day all week checking out property and trying to talk to as many locals as possible to get a feel on how we will be received.  

Doug (stumpy) started thread here somewhere, and I would suggest that you check it out.  Sure he would answer any questions you might have re the locals he met, and the prices of propery.

Incidently Doug was packing the whole week, no one, either at the campsites or in the various towns he visited paid him any mind.

Dave
 
Logged
Please join us!
http://www.nhliberty.org/ New Hampshire Liberty Alliance.

" A leader knows that if he is generous with his time, his people will be generous with their effort."

Plug>>>>Realtor Lovejoy Real Estate!

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2003, 11:24:00 pm »

You know what, it even worries me.  See the cost of living numbers for selected cities.  The cost of living in northern New England is sky high.

Cost of Living in Cities
http://www.bestplaces.net/html/cost_of_living.html

1. Wyoming
Cheyenne 97.6
Casper 96.0

1. Idaho
Boise 96.8
Pocatello 96.8

3. South Dakota
Rapid City 99.9
Sioux Falls 95.4

4. North Dakota
Bismarck 98.8
Fargo 95.7
Grand Forks 100.2

5. Montana
Billings 102.4
Great Falls 100.0

6. Maine
Portland 112.7
Bangor 101.5
Lewiston 101.1

7. Delaware
Wilmington-Newark 111.9
Dover 101.7

8. Vermont
Burlington 113.4

9. Alaska
Anchorage 123.1

10. New Hampshire
Nashua 138.5
Manchester 110.5
Portsmouth-Rochester 138.6
Logged

cbisquit

  • FSP Participant
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • economics is freedom
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2003, 03:02:49 am »

cost of living differences don't mean much when the median income makes up for them and then some
Logged
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2003, 05:14:29 am »

cost of living differences don't mean much when the median income makes up for them and then some

Right, and according to the FSP spreadsheet, this is the case is Wyoming and Delaware.  To a less extent this is also true of New Hamphire.  However, Alaska, Vermont, Maine, and Montana get hammered on this issue.

See the FSP Spreadsheet for yourself.

Here are the rankings:

Income: Mean household income scaled by cost of living:

Because Wyoming has a very low cost of living and a good mean household income, it does best on this measure (along with Delaware).  This measure really hurts Montana.
   
WY 10.00   
AK 5.00   
ND 5.00   
VT 3.89   
SD 5.56   
DE 10.00   
ID 0.00   
MT 0.00   
NH 9.44   
ME 0.56                              
Logged

Zack Bass

  • Guest
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2003, 10:45:38 am »


cost of living differences don't mean much when the median income makes up for them and then some


That's true - if you're able to make the median income.
Often one cannot; otherwise we'd all be living in Beverly Hills.

I just saw a piece on a guy and his Filipina wife and kids living in an RV on a church's parking lot because he had a job in Silicon Valley and he made only $38,000 a year.  (The average sheeple has to pay $450,000 for a 2-bedroom house in that city.)  He was looking for a lower-paying job in Washington where the cost of living was lower, before the church kicked him out.

High cost of living makes a huge difference if you're on a fixed income.

Logged

JonM

  • First 1000
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1971
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2003, 10:50:54 am »

You know what the really weird thing about a higher cost of living is?  Companies pay you more to make up for it.  4 or 5 years ago (back when the economy was cooking) I was in southern NH driving up Route 28, if I recall correctly, and passed a fast food place, I think it was a Burger King, which had a want ad on the marquee sign under the logo, offering jobs starting at $8 an hour (that part I remember).  Now I'm not sure if the fast food places in Wyoming pay more than minimum wage, and I doubt there are many here who aspire to a career in fast food retail, but it is a bit emblematic.

If you can't earn enough to buy food and keep a roof over your head you move, get a new job, or die.  Employers tend to realize this, and try to compensate people to at least a minimum level of life sustainment.  Now for those granite staters who can't find an acceptable career in their home state, there's Massachusetts.  Many tens of thousands of New Hampshire residents can be seen every day driving down I-95, I-93, Route 3, and to a lesser extend the secondary roads like Route 28 and 38, or Route 119 (for those who enjoy the speed limit, you don't wanna go fast in Groton) and Route 111.

There may be few major east-west roads in southern New Hampshire, but there are TONS of ways to get into Taxachusetts.  Of course, you can also look at that as tons of ways for the people of Massachusetts to get into New Hampshire where they can shop sales tax free.  Major malls at Route 3, 28/I-93, and a nice Wal Mart right over the border on Route 119.  As well as the bootlegging of far cheaper hard liquor and fireworks, which are illegal in Massachusetts (even sparklers).

So Zion, if you're so concerned about employment (and who isn't today), what is it you do for a living?
Logged

Mike Lorrey

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Live Free and Never Die
    • The International Libertarian
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2003, 11:12:59 am »

Thanks for the number crunching. It proves my point in another thread.

I did a little bit of the analysis for you. Living in Manchester, NH making 40,000 a year is the equivilant of making 30,000 in Casper, Wyoming or 33,000 in Cheyenne, Wyoming. That is a clear 3-5 dollars an hour less to live the same lifestyle. Try Concord, NH the difference is 5-7 dollars an hour. How about Hanover it is 8-10 an hour more to live there. Nashau and Portsmouth is similar to Concord.

I am beginning to think that I may not be able to afford to move there, without a job guarantee first.

More ZionCurtain disinformation. If you are dumb enough to even CONSIDER living in Hanover, I don't see you making it here. Hanover is expensive because the snotty liberals of Dartmouth College live there. Few people who actually work for a living actually live in Hanover (not unless they have trust funds).

I live four miles down the road in Lebanon, where things are a bit better, though by no means perfect or preferable. I am seeking City Council election in the spring to change that by eliminating local government interference in housing development.

The cost of living problems here in NH are not environmental like they are in Wyoming, they are self imposed by some communities imposing growth limits, which tends to economically exile many working families and causes the demand for family housing to outstrip supply that is restricted. This is certainly something that needs changing. I intend to be one of the people changing it.

If you instead look at the sort of communities that we natives have recommended, areas that are already strongholds of libertarians and conservatives, you would find life to be quite affordable while allowing you to commute fairly easily (15-30 minutes at most) to high paying jobs in economic core communities like Lebanon, Hanover, Concord, and Manchester.

Quote

With Michelle's above per capita income post. Wyoming people live better when you factor in cost of living:

On average a Wyoming worker makes $14.70 per hour
On average a NH worker makes $16.50 per hour

When you factor in that it takes 5-10 per hour more to have the same kind of living in NH.

THis is plainly false. I've been to Wyoming and nowhere does it allow you to live the 'same kind of living' as New Hampshire. There isn't the same access to water, to wildlife, to jobs, or to social opportunities. There certainly isn't the same sort of landscapes or seascapes.

To live the same kind of life in Wyoming that I live here in NH, I'd need to spend billions of dollars to build a whole new habitat, and keep it watered by confiscating water from other states. I'd need to spend billions more building a high tech infrastructure to give Free Staters the same sort of job opportunities, not just new jobs pumping gas at truck stops, slaving in mines or on oil derricks, or working away in government bureaucracies.

If Wyoming spent the money to have the same sort of standard of living as we do naturally, you'd be under a mountain of debt that would make your taxes immense.

It is truly unfair to use NH averages in these statistics, because the majority of tax burden here is imposed at the local level. A few communities that tax a lot skew the data for the state as a whole. The communities you cite are the highest tax and most statist communities in the state. It is entirely normal that they would have high costs of living.

Quote
I think the LP candidate who said " that most families in New Hampshire are struggling to pay their bills" is correct and I do not want to be one of them.

Most families everywhere struggle to pay their bills. Wyoming is no exception. It is a political truism that every community is no more than two paychecks from revolution.

NH is far less so. We have far more capital investment here in NH than other states, esp Wyoming. NH has one of the higher savings rates and the highest average personal net worth of the candidate states (and second in the US).

Have you actually LOOKED at what a "standard of living" entails here in NH vs what it is defined as in Wyoming? I doubt it. A standard of living here entails having many more tons of water at the disposal of each citizen, to start with. It entails having far more internet access at higher bandwidths. It entails having more of just everything at less cost.

Here in NH, we keep our tax bills concentrated in the property tax so that people viscerally KNOW how much they are paying, instead of hiding it in a Chinese water torture of hidden taxation in every element of living. People DO struggle to pay those tax bills these days because of the Claremont decision only because so many have owned their high value homes for so long that they are not used to having to suddenly pay a lot more in taxes.
Logged
The International Libertarian: The Journal of Liberty For Everyone, Everywhere, All The Time

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2003, 11:25:16 am »

More ZionCurtain disinformation. If you are dumb enough to even CONSIDER living in Hanover, I don't see you making it here.

Mike,

I understand that we all might disagree on a few issues...

However, please do not say things like this.  Not only does it make Zion look bad (does he know everything about NH, likely no), it makes the FSP look bad, and might even make you look bad.  There is no reason to call Zion dumb.  If you edit your post I will delete this post.

Thank you,
Keith Carlsen
Logged

cbisquit

  • FSP Participant
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • economics is freedom
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2003, 08:45:01 pm »

Right, and according to the FSP spreadsheet, this is the case is Wyoming and Delaware.  To a less extent this is also true of New Hamphire.  However, Alaska, Vermont, Maine, and Montana get hammered on this issue.

See the FSP Spreadsheet for yourself.

Here are the rankings:

Income: Mean household income scaled by cost of living:

Because Wyoming has a very low cost of living and a good mean household income, it does best on this measure (along with Delaware).  This measure really hurts Montana.
   
WY 10.00   
AK 5.00   
ND 5.00   
VT 3.89   
SD 5.56   
DE 10.00   
ID 0.00   
MT 0.00   
NH 9.44   
ME 0.56                              


Actually, if you replace the data in the spreadsheet with the most recently adopted data referenced at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FSP-state-discussion/message/3895
 in the spreadsheet you come up with a much different distribution, with New Hampshire in a commanding lead, Delaware pulling 2nd, and a surprise appearence by the sleeper favorite Alaska in 3rd.
Logged
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5725
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2003, 09:09:52 pm »

Actually, the message you reference is where FreedomRoad got the figures. ;)  You need to divide "Scaled" (which is just relative income) by "COL" to get income scaled by cost of living.
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

cbisquit

  • FSP Participant
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • economics is freedom
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2003, 09:16:12 pm »

Sorry  ::). I guess I have to admit a certain amount of fanboy-ism toward Alaska.  I jump at anything that seems to make it look better.
Logged
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

jgmaynard

  • FSP Shadow Advertising
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2288
    • The Light of Alexandria
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2003, 12:06:28 am »

Quote from: ZionCurtain on July 02, 2003, 12:50:32 pm
Quote
I think the LP candidate who said " that most families in New Hampshire are struggling to pay their bills" is correct and I do not want to be one of them.

First, it is still the lowest total tax burden in the continental United States.

Second, I was just with her last night. I mentioned the use of that line in the forum, and her response was "I was talking about the PROPERTY tax!".

Here's what's going on now in NH...

The Republicans are trying to make a big deal about property taxes because they want to lower it.

The Democrats make a big deal about property taxes, because they want a broad based tax.

We Libertarians are making a big deal about it, because we want to reduce it by a whole lot, or get rid of it.

Besides you may as well let the other two parties do free advertising for you.

NH voters HATE taxes (even 54% of Democrats supported Benson's budget veto) :) We're riding on it. :D

JM
« Last Edit: July 09, 2003, 12:09:34 am by jgmaynard »
Logged
The Light of Alexandria By James Maynard

A history of the first 1,000 years of science, and how it changed the ancient world, and our world today.



http://www.lightofalexandria.com

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:This is distressing
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2003, 12:55:21 am »

The Democrats make a big deal about property taxes, because they want a broad based tax.

This is the same way in TN.  In TN we have an income tax but it only taxes the rich or old people, just like NH.  We have high sales taxes in TN and low property taxes.  In NH, you have low sales taxes and high property taxes, very similar.

Anyway, the Ds and the former Republican Governor (who campaigned on no wage tax) tried to pass an income tax and they said they would lower the sales taxes.  Of course, it did not happen.  

Instead, we got a D in the Governor's office and he is cutting the government and not raising taxes.  Even Democrats can do good things (once in a while).

I predict that both TN and NH (unless we move there) will get wage taxes.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up