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Author Topic: FSP Concerns  (Read 16615 times)

twoms85

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2011, 08:17:08 pm »

I saw anarchists = extremists here. I guess I am a "radical" for capitalism, but am a bit insulted. I'm ready to move as soon as I find employment... But I am an anarchist, or Austro Libertarian (even though I realize govts will be around longer than we're alive), but I want to make sure that people like me would be welcome here. I'm a realist, but I also want to governed as closely to my own mind and body as possible.
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MaineShark

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2011, 09:19:29 pm »

We often call ourselves "voluntaryists" to seem less "extreme."

But anarchists are quite welcome.  The ones who complain about anarchists are mostly just a small handful of loud folks who have nothing better to do with their lives.

Joe
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dalebert

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2011, 12:22:03 am »

I saw anarchists = extremists here.

My impression from boots-on-ground here in NH is that we are the majority, but all types are welcome.  Plus, my impression may very well be biased based on the crowds that I tend to mingle with.  If I hung out at NHLA meetings or the state house, my impression might be very different.

twoms85

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2011, 10:01:34 am »

Ok great news. Thanks for the feedback and reinforcement. Hope to see you in NH soon!
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BradKeyes

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2011, 10:04:49 am »

anarchists = extremists
Anarchists are extremists in the literal sense of the word. With regard to government and use of force there is nothing more extreme than saying "it shouldn't exist" and "don't initiate" (except the other extreme which is total government control).

As far being welcome here, that shouldn't be a problem. There were 1000 people at PorcFest this past week split pretty evenly between anarchists and in-the-system, small government types. Everyone was welcome. There are discussions, disagreements, and you need to be able to defend your positions but we are able to get along and hopefully keep moving in the right direction.

Welcome.
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Knowledge becomes wisdom only after it has been put to practical use. Knowledge must be gained by ourselves. Mankind may supply us with the facts; but the results, even if they agree with previous ones, must be the work of our mind. - Benjamin Disraeli

time4liberty

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2011, 11:49:22 am »

My opinion is that there is a very large number of people, perhaps a majority, that ascribe to the NAP, but also believe that inside the system pro liberty activism can be legitimate and effective.

Let's not forget that political activism does not imply a person endorses the state.

Ideals and tactics are different issues.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 11:51:19 am by time4liberty »
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Russell Kanning

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2011, 09:33:29 pm »

Ideals and tactics are different issues.
actually there are many of us that fit the voluntaryist name .... that think

"the means are the ends"

the tactics you use build the world of tomorrow

I try to follow great men that lived by that phrase.
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

Trenks

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2011, 02:00:52 am »

This thread is funny. I think everyone should read the book " how to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie. Especially the promotors. You attract bees with honey. You are a conservative? How wonderful! (And then you get them to talk about themselves for a little bit) I am a Voluntaryist myself. I was converted by some people on this forum a couple years ago.   
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Argentum

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2011, 05:28:36 pm »

This thread is funny. I think everyone should read the book " how to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie. Especially the promotors. You attract bees with honey. You are a conservative? How wonderful! (And then you get them to talk about themselves for a little bit) I am a Voluntaryist myself. I was converted by some people on this forum a couple years ago.   

That may be better than accusing people of wanting to put brown people in cages and then bomb them. ::)
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time4liberty

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2011, 11:10:18 am »

Ideals and tactics are different issues.
actually there are many of us that fit the voluntaryist name .... that think

"the means are the ends"

the tactics you use build the world of tomorrow

I try to follow great men that lived by that phrase.

I agree that moral ends are not reached by immoral means. My view is that pro-liberty political activism is certainly not agression, and I think most of those I'm speaking about would agree.

I know there are some (perhaps including you) who do consider any political activism to be immoral, and that's fine too.
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dalebert

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2011, 03:01:54 pm »

I know there are some (perhaps including you) who do consider any political activism to be immoral, and that's fine too.

For me, morality is a tool intended to accomplish something and I base it on how well it works.  I don't have any faith in politics to accomplish more good than harm.  However, I wouldn't call someone immoral for engaging in politics if they sincerely believe they're doing more good than harm.  They obviously feel differently than I do and have a different level of faith in it as a tactic.

My views have changed somewhat over time, particularly in how I tend to discuss the subject.  I have, for instance, started a poo-storm a few years ago when I said voting was immoral, though I was specifying for myself and others with similar principles.  It's hard for that to not be taken personally and I am well aware of that now so I adjust my language.  If I say an action is immoral and someone has chosen to engage in that action, it certainly seems like I'm calling that person immoral.

And so I tend to avoid language of morality in general now.  If I do use it, I am careful to specify that I can only speak on behalf of myself.  I will say "I don't engage in that because FOR ME, it would be immoral based on my beliefs." while clarifying that I don't apply the same judgment to someone else who is doing what they sincerely believe to be the right thing or the best choice available to them.

So yes, it is immoral for me to engage in politics, but it not necessarily immoral for others to.  Depends on their motivations.  That's a complicated discussion.  For instance, a person can be engaging in an elaborate justification process when on some level they don't really believe what they're doing is right.  Even then, I probably wouldn't consider it an effective tactic to be confrontational and accusatory about that.  I'd rather engage them in a sort of Socratic method to help them resolve their own cognitive dissonance.

Dave Mincin

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2011, 03:13:31 pm »

Dale, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "FOR ME!"  To often people mean for me, and make blanket statements, whether knowingly or not, insulting their neighbors, and stating they are wrong, even if their neighbors hold the same strong convictions about freedom, but simply see a different road to attainment.

If I might quote someone who was much wiser than I, my grandma...."David, why can we all just get along," and if I might add, respect each other.  Personally I just think we should not be fighting with each other, because we all share the same goal, if our methods may differ. :)
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Argentum

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2011, 04:32:35 pm »

Dale,

I have to disagree.  I think some libertarians are reluctant to make moral judgments about others because they feel that's what statists do.  It doesn't necessarily follow that because I think X is wrong, that I think X should be illegal.  Granted, in many cases that's what happens.

It sounds like you're some sort of utilitarian (liberty works) and that's fine.  Some people can only be reached if they see evidence that liberty, and only, liberty can achieve their ends.

The NAP is a moral statement, though.  Libertarianism is a religion and I'm not afraid to admit it.  There's nothing wrong with judging people.  We do it everyday.

Some things are absolutely wrong.  Murder, theft, rape, etc.  We don't they those things are wrong for just ourselves.  In one way or another, whether through the existing State apparatus or in a Stateless society, those crimes will be addressed.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2011, 09:16:05 pm »

That may be better than accusing people of wanting to put brown people in cages and then bomb them. ::)
nah
they vote for and pay taxes towards people who
bomb brown people
and put the surviving males in cages
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

Russell Kanning

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Re: FSP Concerns
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2011, 09:20:54 pm »

I know there are some (perhaps including you) who do consider any political activism to be immoral, and that's fine too.
if everything is fine .... then why choose one method over another ..... is it " whatever it takes to win"?
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude
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