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Author Topic: The Great State Debate Debates  (Read 45449 times)

ZuG

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The Great State Debate Debates
« on: July 08, 2003, 01:35:27 am »

Following this message are the opening statements, rebuttals, and closing statements of the 10 candidate states in alphabetical order for easy viewing and reference. Please do *not* post to this topic.


All comments should be directed to http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2124

NOTE: These should now be formatted properly. If you see something that is not, please PM me.

Update 7/16/03: I have now posted all entries which have made it in to the Great State Debate by the deadline. If you find any descrepancies between these postings and the postings in the Great State Debate thread (e.g. they edited it before the deadline and I didn't catch it) please PM me ASAP so the voting will be on the proper version of the argument. Thanks to all who participated. It was an enjoyable and informing experience.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 01:02:54 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2003, 01:35:41 am »

Alaska -- The Obvious Choice
By Craig Craft (Craft_6)

When deciding which state to vote for, FSP members should ask themselves several questions.  No state provides the best answer to every question, but when all the answers are considered, one state rises to the top -- Alaska.

How many voters will have to be persuaded?   Population is the one issue that cannot be explained away by those advocating New Hampshire or Idaho.  20,000 FSP members will automatically have more influence in the lower population states.  Alaska's population is among the lowest at 644K, roughly half that of the highest population states under consideration, and only slightly ahead of Wyoming at 499K.  In the 2000 election, 288 thousand voted, the second lowest number of the ten states.

How free is the state already?   By most measures of freedom, Alaska ranks at or near the top.  Alaska recently passed Vermont Carry, moving into the top tier of states in gun freedom.  Alaska's tax load is the lowest in the nation, taken as a percentage of income.  In measures of statewide land use planning, Alaska ranks among the best from a libertarian perspective.  

How welcome would 20,000 newcomers be?   Some of the opposition to the FSP will not be political, but simple resentment of outsiders.  Alaska has the lowest percentage of native-born residents at 38%.  Alaskans are used to welcoming refugees from the Lower 48 who moved there to start a new life and to live more freely.

What about the weather?   Unfortunately, none of the candidate states is a tropical paradise, since Hawaii was dropped early on.  Anchorage can be cold, with an average January temperature of +16 degrees F.  Yet this is warmer than a few other candidate cities, such as Jackson, WY (+15), Sioux Falls, SD (+14), and Fargo, ND (+6), and not significantly colder than Concord, NH (+19) or Idaho Falls, ID (+20).  Juneau, AK checks in at +27.

What about jobs?   Alaska has the advantage of a decent-sized metropolitan area in Anchorage, which other low-population candidate states such as Wyoming are lacking.  Job forecasts place it well ahead of other low-population contenders such as Wyoming, North Dakota, and Vermont.  

Will the FSP find any allies there?   New Hampshire may have the small but effective NHLP, but Alaska has the Alaskan Independence Party, a group dedicated to autonomy for Alaska, and sharing many of the same pro-freedom positions as the FSP.  It has elected a governor in the past, and could be revived by an injection of Porcupine enthusiasm.  

Could the state prosper under autonomy?   With the possible exception of Maine (at twice the population), no other state has better potential.  Alaska has an enormous coastline, abundant natural resources and water, an international border, an advantageous position on the Pacific Rim, and an international airport.

Many have held back on their support for Alaska, because they fear others won't support it.  As Libertarians, we should know better -- the same thing happens to our Presidential candidate every four years.  Vote for the best choice -- vote for Alaska.  

[500 words]

Sources:
http://www.freestateproject.org/state.htm

http://www.freestateproject.org/alaska.htm

http://www.freestateproject.org/files/alaska.pdf

http://www.freestateproject.org/climate3.htm
« Last Edit: July 14, 2003, 05:29:02 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2003, 01:36:02 am »

Deal-breakers (Alaska's rebuttal statement)

By Craig Craft (Craft_6)


The FSP is a bold new strategy for achieving liberty, but selecting the wrong state could make the task much more difficult, lengthening the time to success and the extent of success that could be achieved.  FSP voters should be leery of any states that might have too many negative factors, or deal-breakers:

High population:   New Hampshire (1.3M), Maine (1.3M), and Idaho (1.3M) may simply have too many people for 20,000 FSP members to convert to even quasi-libertarians.  If fewer than 20,000 actually move, they will be even worse.

Land-locked geography:   Wyoming and South Dakota have neither an international border, nor a coastline.  Hopefully the FSP will never have to play the secession card, but neither of these states offers a credible threat in that direction.

Limited job growth:   Wyoming (36K), North Dakota (34K), and Vermont (34K) forecast fewer than 40,000 new jobs in the decade.  20,000 Porcupines and their families may find it difficult to migrate there in a short time, slowing the FSP's impact.  If jobs are too difficult to find, some of the 20,000 may give up and stay home.

Anti-libertarian citizens:   On an important broad measure of liberalness based on citizen vote percentages for liberal and conservative candidates over many years, Vermont (74.2), Maine (64.5), North Dakota (54.7), and Delaware (52.1) checked in on the wrong side of the ledger from a limited-government perspective.  Perhaps 20,000 Porcupines could convert them, but why not take on an easier task?

Which states have the fewest deal-breakers from the lists above?  See for yourself:

0 - Alaska, Montana
1 - Delaware, Idaho, New Hampshire, South Dakota
2 - Maine, North Dakota, Wyoming, Vermont

Of the two states with no significant deal-breakers, Alaska has the lower population, the lower taxes, and thousands of miles of coastline that Montana lacks.

[299 words, due to penalty on late opening statement]

Sources:

http://www.freestateproject.org/state.htm

"Citizen Ideologies in the States" http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1213
« Last Edit: July 14, 2003, 05:28:44 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2003, 01:36:26 am »

Alaska -- Common Objections and their Refutation, closing statement (by Craft_6)


Although none of my esteemed opponents in this debate has raised them, several objections are heard when someone asserts that Alaska is the best choice for the Free State.  In the interest of full disclosure, I will raise the objections myself, and explain why they should not discourage anyone from voting for Alaska.

Alaska is the most opted-out-of state. This has been mentioned many times, and is probably true, but the actual numbers of opt-outs for each state have not been disclosed.  Were the opt-outs made after careful consideration, or were they the first thing members did when joining the Project?  If Alaska wins the vote, all those who want to move toward freedom will reconsider the reasons why Alaska was selected, and may well agree with the selection.  

Alaska has no neighboring states for Free State ideas to spread to.  Alaska is nearly a continent by itself.  Libertarian ideas can be copied anywhere, but Alaska will have plenty of room for anyone seeking liberty.

Alaska has oil. It’s hard to see how abundant natural resources could be viewed as a negative.  A more libertarian Alaska might make more oil available for sale.

Alaska has strategic military value.  The goal of the Free State Project is to remain part of the United States, while restoring the traditional and proper balance of federalism, so this would not be a serious issue.  Even an entirely independent Alaska would be a stable, democratic, liberty-loving republic, not the type of nation that causes the US to consider intervention.

Alaska is too cold. This was covered in my opening statement.  Winter temperatures and snowfall in Anchorage and Juneau are comparable to those in several other Free State candidate cities.

Alaska has too much federal and state land. The federal land may be an issue, but the state land could be made available for settlement and development, if the FSP succeeds in gaining control of the state government.

Alaska is too remote.  Compared to what?  For Porcupines on the West Coast, it’s no more remote than any of the Eastern states.  Alaska has an international airport in Anchorage, and can be reached in a single day’s travel from anywhere in the US.  It is only a few hours by air from Anchorage to Seattle.  Is Seattle remote?  If you want to move to the Free State in style, a three-day cruise from the West Coast will take you there.  The journey from England to the New World took several weeks for our forefathers, without the buffets and entertainment.  

Alaska offers the best chance for true liberty.  Its remoteness may be its greatest asset – libertarian political experiments in a physically separate state might be less threatening to the rest of the nation. A Free Alaska with more liberal gun, drug, and privacy policies might be less disconcerting to the federal government than a state surrounded by other states.  If you believe Alaska is the best choice, vote for it first.  Lead the way, and others will follow.

[500 words]
« Last Edit: July 14, 2003, 05:33:59 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2003, 01:38:48 am »

DELAWARE

by Gary Snyder (delaware@garysnyder.org)

I've rarely been to Delaware (just driven thru, mostly) but I believe an OBJECTIVE analysis (see Jason Sorens’ brilliant state comparison analysis at www.freestateproject.org/stateanalysis.htm) makes it the best candidate state for the following reasons:

1) Population:  BY FAR the most important consideration.  Deciding where best to place 20,000 activists is a numbers game.  New Hampshire (nearly 1.3 million, and growing rapidly) and Idaho (1.3 million) simply have too many people for 20,000 to tilt the scales, relative to Delaware (800K).  On this alone, Delaware deserves the nod over those two states.

2) Coastline: ESSENTIAL for a state seeking independence and autonomy.  Wilmington is one of the most important ports in the country.  On this alone, Delaware deserves the nod over Montana and Wyoming.

3) Economics: The FSP is ALL ABOUT economics, and NO OTHER STATE can match Delaware's economic potential.  Delaware has the best job market of the candidate states, and is very business-friendly (http://delaware.gov/yahoo/Business).  It is a corporate haven, and UNIQUELY positioned to attract new and existing companies.  This CANNOT be overstated.  It is within commuting distance of job-centers like Philly and Baltimore.  Its long coastline provides intrinsic opportunity in the fishing, boating, tourist, and import-export industries.  It is the FRIENDLIEST state to retirees (http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles/retire/basics/9838.asp).  And Delaware has the highest income per capita of ANY state in the WHOLE U.S., fostering economic opportunities for FSers and a populace adverse to wealth redistribution.

4) Climate: To attract another 15,000 (and more) libertarians to the FS, it would help SIGNIFICANTLY if the state chosen doesn't suffer thru brutal winters.  Delaware’s the only state on the list that fits that description.  (It's also easier to campaign and do outreach when the temperature's not subzero.)

5) Small Size:  Although a deterrent to many FS members, think about it.  In a tiny state like Delaware, organizing, meeting, campaigning and ASSIMILATING is MUCH easier and cheaper.

6) Location:  Proximity to DC and other media centers is a GOOD thing.  In Montana or Idaho, we will be dismissed and ignored as "right-wing militia types" and isolationists.  The media won't be able to do that in Delaware.  We're too close to home.  We will get attention, and our libertarian model will get a spotlight.  Isn't that what we want?  Isn't that what we CRAVE?  Isn't that necessary to gain support, and spread freedom?  We NEED this experiment to take place DIRECTLY beneath the noses of the eastern media elite establishment.

Also, these population centers ARE WHERE THE PEOPLE ARE.  This is where more LIBERTARIANS are.  If we hope to attract 15,000 more of them, this is where our best chance lies.  The other states are too remote to draw the necessary numbers.

The major knock on Delaware is “lack of libertarian culture”.  This notion that ANY state’s “libertarian culture” is significantly greater than any other is an exaggeration.  Modern transportation, telecommunications (folks, everyone in 2003 gets CNN and MTV) and the fact that people move frequently have lessened the differences between states' cultures.  Culture doesn't matter so much because the culture in EVERY state is VERY far from what we want it to be. Some states are clearly "more libertarian" than others, but even these states are not very libertarian at all compared to what we would consider to be ideal.

For every Delaware "statist sentiment", I could list one for any other candidate state.  And for every "freedom sentiment" cited by another, I could list one for Delaware (www.usatoday.com/news/graphics/statefinances/flash.htm).  It gets us nowhere.  And it says next to NOTHING about ANY state's "political culture", as most folks don't vote.  It only speaks to what Republicrats in office have been able to ram thru to serve themselves and a few special interests, usually AGAINST the sentiment of most citizens.

Assimilation is the job ahead of us in whichever state we choose.

Delaware has SOMETHING FOR EVERYONE (www2.newszap.com/area/delaware.html): a high quality of life (www.state.de.us/dedo/new_web_site/Publications/databook_2002/Quality%20of%20Life.htm), quaint colonial villages, good farmland, isolated rural areas, state wildlife areas and forests, hunting, beautiful beaches, state parks, small cities and culture.  Check it out, and do the SMART thing for the FSP – vote DELAWARE.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2003, 03:43:45 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2003, 01:39:04 am »

DELAWARE, SOMETHING FOR EVERYONE (by Guy777)


LIFE

WY
Quote
Best religious diversity

Should rephrase that to best Christian diversity. Wyoming does not have any Muslim or Buddhist religions. Delaware at least has a Muslim base. Can’t expect all members to be Christians.



NH
Quote
Smallest number of government employees

Delaware has the smallest period of the ten.

Quote
Highest percentage of high-tech jobs

Your source is outdated; the technology industry is a different economic animal today. Checkout ShadyG’s post http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2277

Delaware - #1 in scientist and Engineering

Quote
Highest percentage of knowledge jobs

According to New Hampshire’s link, it ranks #13 and Delaware ranks #4.

Quote
Largest amount of venture capital investment

Delaware = #1 in patent per 1000 and #2 in Industry Investments in R&D in nation.

Quote
Coastal border, facilitating international trade

New Hampshire coastline is minuscule compared to Delaware, Maine, and Alaska.



LIBERTY

WY
Quote
Third best homeschooling laws

Forget to mention that Delaware is tied for third with Wyoming.

Quote
Only FSP state without hate crimes laws

That’s nice, but will women want to move there if they knew this? I wouldn't want my wife being sexually harassed. Freedom from abuse is a freedom in itself.

Quote
High speed limits (75mph)

Only means there are fewer vehicles on the road.



NH
Quote
“Live Free or Die” Motto

Delaware State Motto - "Liberty and Independence"



PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS

WY
Quote
Concentrated population - will not scatter FSP activists over many separate districts

86 percent of the population of Delaware resides in the MSA of Wilmington and Dover.

Quote
Best state for voter response to small government agendas (high votes for libertarian candidates)

According to the link from New Hampshire, .05 percent of Wyoming’s population voted Libertarian. Delaware had .09%.



NH
Quote
Nonpartisan local elections.

Of the 57 Municipal Elections Delaware possesses, only Elsmere and Wilmington has partisan elections.

Quote
Compact size makes campaigning easy

Delaware is the most compact of all the 10 states.

Quote
Fusion, making multi-member districts easier than single-member districts!

New Hampshire is not allowed on the ballot and needs to write in. Delaware also has fusion and is allowed on the ballots.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2003, 05:43:56 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2003, 01:39:16 am »

DELAWARE – The FIRST State for the FREE State
Gary Snyder

Do you really think NH, in the country’s far NE corner, or any state in the remote Mountain West, will be able to pull in 20,000 libertarians from all over within three years?  Or do you think Delaware, more accessible to more folks in the mid-Atlantic, offering a more varied and robust economy, and warmer climate, has a better chance?

THAT is the key question facing every FSP member.  We are not choosing a state so much for us as we are for the 15,000 who follow us.

Delaware is the only LOW population candidate state in a high population REGION.

Relocating to Delaware, or taking a second home as a primary residence, is easier for MORE libertarians than it is to relocate to any other state.

MOST people considering the FSP aren't going to nitpick local laws. Regardless, the whole purpose of the FSP is to CHANGE those laws, to make our own laws; not to gather somewhere where the laws aren’t as bad.  We want to bring about change, rather than “hunker down”, right?

The comparison of local laws only serves to make us all dizzy.

People will, for the most part, vote for who they KNOW; not for whom most resembles their “native culture” (whatever that means).  Assimilation is the job ahead of us in any chosen state.

I also reject the notion that a vote for a Republican reflects a vote for more freedom.  Liberal Democrats are not necessarily less freedom-friendly than authoritarian Republicans.  Which group is more likely to embrace a change in drug prohibition?

Delaware is evenly divided between Democrats and Republicans, making it easier for a third party to prevail by grabbing as little as 33%.  An entrenched RP or DP would be much harder to displace.

Delaware's Senate has 21 members, 13 Democrats and 8 Republicans.
Delaware's House has 41 members, 29 Republicans and 12 Democrats.

Consider population, coastline, economics, climate, small size and location - and do the SMART thing for FSP – vote DELAWARE.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 12:52:42 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2003, 01:39:36 am »

Idaho Has a Superb Climate For the FSP[/color][/b][/size] - By Exitus...


   Frequently it is argued that Idaho is at a disadvantage in comparison to other states because it has the highest population.  However, the population in Idaho is a positive due to the high propensity of the Idaho electorate to be persuaded by libertarian arguments, consider the following:
[/font]
« Last Edit: July 10, 2003, 03:33:52 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2003, 01:39:57 am »

Idaho Still Offers a Better Climate for the FSP! (by exitus...)


Certain highly-touted laws among thousands in statute:

     Some states have a heritage of freedom in certain highly significant outward signs, yet when analyzing numerous collections of laws on spreadsheets, different pictures may emerge.
     Political scientists know to make the distinction between the ideology of citizens and their government.  Who would have guessed that Estonia and a dozen other nations would outperform the United States on economic freedom today?  Obviously, the most important test of potential for change comes from measuring the changing yearning of a population, wherein liberty lies.
     
The Idaho advantage:

     In the last decade, Idaho has made a dramatic change from being a Democratic party stronghold to now the most Republican state in the Union.
     Clemson University made one of the most comprehensive state-by-state analysis of economic freedoms ever made with 125 different indicators spanning several years and 47 indexes.  Idaho came first in the nation.  Upon further examination, the primary reason that Idaho pulled so far ahead of states with different tax structures is that Idaho does exceptionally well with a relaxed regulatory environment, limited licensing requirements, a favorable legal environment and the lowest use of public aid by families in the nation.
     Recently, 26,000 individuals signed a petition and prompted a march to oust a Boise Mayor over spending a few dollars of taxpayer money on a dinner!

Coastal Borders :

     Other than offering highly abstract presuppositions, those who advocate this as a necessary strategy fail to prove how this is going to gain a political advantage.  An ocean port used for trade implies forming trading alliances with the people of other nations;  yet this supposes that the increasingly imperial federal government with plenary Constitutional power over the Nation’s borders would grant such an arrangement.  If in its nature to grant autonomy, then why bother?  This also presupposes dramatic changes in the political mind-set of American citizens in one state that would not simultaneously affect other states, especially outlying states in the same region that already share so much culturally and economically.

Idaho advantage:
     It is far more feasible, as strategies go, to gain sympathetic states as allies, none share so great a uniting cause as those in the ‘sagebrush rebellion’ of the Western states, a fight over federal lands and federal mandates that have crippled farmers and other resource economies; the issue has embroiled Nevada, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, South Dakota and several others who have legislatures that signed 10th amendment resolutions.  None dare call the possibility of a confederacy out of future exigencies, the advancement of regional common interests might be a more accurate term for now.

Wyoming:
     Theoretical mathematical probability of viability due to size, coupled with citizen ideology and government ideology is highly compelling for Wyoming.  Despite being entirely possible, the reality that Wyoming may be a hard sell to the remaining 15,000 especially assuming the first 5,000 FSP adopters are the most ready to move.
     Most of the remaining 15,000 activists will likely come, not from marginally- less free states, but from those states where the most numbers of libertarians live simply because of inherent advantages of living where large numbers of people have already decided to live: think California.

Idaho advantage
     Sunny and highly desirable Idaho offers the next-warmest weather, the most job opportunities, abundant land and recreation opportunities and more.  The opportunity to gain synergy by influencing rural counties of states surrounding Idaho  also offers an interesting case for the more populous and more regionally influential Idaho.
[/size]
« Last Edit: July 14, 2003, 05:33:16 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2003, 01:40:06 am »


Idaho Offers an Excellent Climate for the Free State Project (by exitus...)

Each candidate state has a unique defining feature.  It seems common knowledge that Idaho is a conservative state, perhaps evidenced by the fact that 80% of the entire state legislature is a member of the Republican Party.  This conservative element could play beautifully into many aspects of our agenda:
  • The use of government public welfare programs in Idaho is already the lowest in the country.  So low, that by one particular measurement already mentioned, the number of families receiving aid was the lowest in the country, even 1/10th that of New Hampshire; even on several other measures, Idaho also had the lowest use of government public aid in the country.
  • The expenditures per pupil in government schools is the lowest among our candidate states, and near lowest in the country.
  • Idaho's overall tax burden per capita is the 2nd lowest in the West.
  • Idaho has the 2nd lowest state and local per capita debt in the nation
  • Emphasis on fiscal tightness consistently places Idaho with highest ratings in the bond market.  Idaho managed to produce a budget that was in the black in the latest legislative session.
  • When examining taxes, there is a hidden one that is hard to quantify, Idaho has a very low level of business regulation.
All of these facts describe a state that values self-reliance, this established political direction has many elements that would play well for a libertarian agenda to the populace of a single state, especially in those measures which would bring about increased fiscal responsibility.  

One frequently over-looked fact, however, is that Idaho also has many factors that play well into social freedoms:

Idaho has the next-most free smoking laws, tied or next-best for home school freedoms, some of the most freedoms in the country for alternative medicine practices, and a recent history of legalized prostitution. In addition, the city of Boise is considering making a statement of opposition against the Patriot Act, patterned after the opposition of Idaho’s favorite politician, Butch Otter who was the only Republican congressman to vote against the Patriot act among our candidate states.

If you consider this high level of support in the right direction that the people of Idaho present, this combined with the lowest crime rate in the Western U.S., the highest job availability, a favorable sunny and moderate climate and high levels of amenities, Idaho offers a tremendous climate for change, and wonderful success for the FSP.
[/font][/size]
http://www.idoc.state.id.us/Data/economic/high.html
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 12:58:53 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2003, 01:40:18 am »

MAINE by Joe Swyers, Leadville, Colorado
(a westerner making the case for a northeast state) :o


Maine is the best compromise state for people who like Alaska or the West but want east coast amenities. Maine is larger than the other five New England states combined. Great outdoor spaces -- in the East!  Yet the Portland MSA has a quarter million people! Maine resident Thomas Golebiewski states: "it is certainly less than a 1 hour commute by car/train into downtown Boston, certainly close enough for many of its residents to work and spend time in Boston." Back home, Maine is widely wired for cable internet to support high tech jobs.

Growth is welcome, especially at Maine's premier ex-Air Force Base opened for commercial development. It is an international class airport capable of handling any aircraft. Golebiewski also states: "I cannot stress enough that our coastline offers a resource matched only by Alaska.  The opportunity for industry, foreign relations, and commerce abound up and down the Maine coast, and the people who live there certainly are comprised of many sympathetic to the ideals of the FSP."

Maine is best state for autonomy. Maine has less Federal land than all but Delaware. An independent Maine would not be an enclave nor threaten to separate other states from the lower 48. Maine could ally with neighboring secessionist Quebec or New Brunswick.

Maine's secession from Massachusetts in 1820 fuels Maine's independent spirit. Fishing and logging communities hate government interference in private forests or fisheries. Northern Mainers want to be 51st state.

Maine's 228 mile coastline has mild winters, hot summer days and cool nights. Maine?s natural diversity is surpassed only by Alaska. It has 27,639 square miles of forest and 3,478 miles of shoreline.
Coastal residents enjoy fresh caught seafood.
World-class hunting includes bear, moose, deer, wild turkey, upland game and waterfowl.

Maine received an "F" from the Brady Campaign Gun Control 2002 Report Card.
Maine received the worst gun control score in America -- a minus 10 -- from the Open Society Institute.

Maine is the most politically independent state. Maine's split in voter registration (31%D, 29%R, 38% unenrolled) gives third parties exceptional influence. It is the ONLY state which gave Perot second place in 1992. In 1974 it was first in electing an independent governor. It did again in 1994 (he term limited in 2002). Maine limits legislators to four consecutive terms and Governors to eight years. A district's population is THE major factor in campaign time and expense and representation. Maine?s House districts have under 9,000 people. Idaho's has 36,962. New Hampshire's 14-seat district has 43,246. Maine voters can veto legislation, and make their own with initiative and referendums.

According to the FSP FAQ: ?important criteria include: 1) coastal access (to make ourselves less dependent on the American market and by extension American policies)?.
Only Maine delivers the world-class coastal access and independence needed for autonomy.

Fred Staples stated:
?As the chairman of the LPME, I'm committed to the liberating [of] Maine.
I think Maine is the best choice for the Project.?

Here are some reasons.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2003, 03:38:14 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2003, 01:40:28 am »

MAINE'S REBUTTAL (by Joe (sequal to Solitar))


NH
Quote
• Incredibly diverse terrain - ocean, lakes, mountains, forests
• Multitude of charming New England towns
• Hiking, skiing, snowmobiling, kayaking, hunting, camping, ocean swimming
• Diverse mix of towns, some with less than ten people per square mile
Maine has more all of these assets than any other FSP state, including NH and AK.

NH
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Quality of Life:
How can you compare rural life by the sea with Morgan Quitno Press’ dubious factors for "quality of life"?

DE
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Coastline: ESSENTIAL for a state seeking independence and autonomy.
Agreed! But not near Washington. Maine’s remote coast can deliver independence and autonomy.

DE & NH
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• Coastal border
Maine has seven major ports and 228 miles of coast.  NH has only 18 miles (much in state parks). It has one bottlenecked port at Portsmouth across the River from Kittery, Maine. Like neighboring potentially secessionist New Brunswick, Maine is an Atlantic Province.

ID & NH
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• Canadian border
ID's & NH's borders are short, remote, with two roads. Maine’s border is 500+ miles with numerous back roads, many minor roads, seven major highways. Maine is first of the ten in International & Coastal trade.

NH
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Districts begin at 2987.
NH's largest districts have 42,586 people. 381 of NH districts are larger than Maine’s with 8,443 people/district. Maine's Constitutionally can't be multi-seaters like NH’s.

ID
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32% of Idaho's population was 19 or younger, and 23.4% are 14 and younger
Idaho's population bomb -- maybe 1.6 million by 2010 and 2 million by 2020.  Even NH may only surpass 1.5 million by 2010.

NH
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• Highest number of elected libertarians among the ten candidate states
• Highest density of LP members
LP percentages are so miniscule anywhere that being highest is being knee high to a grasshopper.

NH
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• Fusion,
Fusion tries to beat NH's straight ticket voting (Of FSP states, only DE & NH have straight ticket voting).

VT
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Vermont supported Ross Perot
NH: Over a third of voters are registered Independents!
Maine has over 38% "unenrolled" and they vote independent! Independent governor twice! In Maine Perot beat Bush!

WY
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Initiative, referendum, and term limits
Maine is the only eastern FSP state with these!

NH
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• Local town meetings,
These are New England wide but Maine's towns also have home rule. One town seceded (Frye Island).

NH
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• Right to Revolution
It's also in the ME, MT, WY, ID Constitutions.

NH
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• Least restrictive gun laws
Maine is least restrictive according to Brady Campaign and SOROS. Thus 48% of Mainers own guns (more than NH, less than VT)

WY
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Highly individualistic society
Northeast Mainers are so individualist that some want to secede.

MT
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To be a Montanan means to be accepted by other Montanans. That endorsement ain’t gonna come easy....
So don’t plan on moving here unless you can respect us for what we are, and are as willing to be changed, inside out, as you’re keen to change our great state.
 
The same said in Maine. But Maine can welcome both Easterners and Westerners in its wide open spaces. (Avoid ME & NH west and south of Portland because of creeping Bostonification).


500 words (not counting such as:
MT
Quote:
« Last Edit: July 14, 2003, 05:30:54 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2003, 01:40:42 am »

MAINE'S CLOSING ARGUMENT (by Joe, aka, Solitar)

Maine is the BEST state for those wanting a warmer, closer version of independent Alaska. Maine’s extensive forests, coastline, and Canadian border are “wild" -- affording privacy unmatched in the east. Yet Maine’s wilderness and warm coast is close to northeastern cities.

Maine is larger than the other five New England states combined. At 60% rural it is tied with VT. The next most rural state (SD) is 48%. NH is only 41% rural. Great open spaces! Rural westerners are welcome!

Could the Free State have its own Air Base? Maine’s premier ex-Air Base is open for private development. It handled B52’s and 747's. It can expand to handle any aircraft or spacecraft. It was one of the largest Air Bases in SAC and could be the largest international airport in Maine.

According to the FSP FAQ: “important criteria include: 1) coastal access (to make ourselves less dependent on the American market and by extension American policies)”.

Of the lower 48, Maine’s coast is the best for independence. Delaware’s is under the eye of Washington D.C. New Hampshire’s is too short for much privacy or private ownership. According to James Maynard, pirates used to hide in Maine’s profusion of inlets, islands, bays, and harbors along 3,478 miles of shoreline.

The FSP main web page says of Free State activists:
“Then they could use their political leverage to negotiate appropriate political autonomy for our state.”

Maine has less Federal land than all but Delaware. A more autonomous Maine would not be an enclave in the middle of the country. An independent Maine would not threaten to separate other states from the lower 48 as NH would. Maine could ally with neighboring and potentially secessionist Quebec or New Brunswick.  North Mainers want to secede as 51st state

Maine is most independent state, politically, in the nation with independent governors and voting for independent Presidents.  The independent/reform vote in 1992 was:
30.44%   206,820   Maine
28.43%     73,481   Alaska
27.04%   130,395   Idaho
26.11%   107,225   Montana
25.56%     51,263   Wyoming
23.07%     71,084   North Dakota
22.78%     65,991   Vermont
22.56%   121,337   New Hampshire
21.80%     73,295   South Dakota
20.44%     59,213   Delaware


Amenities? Other New England states have only a sample of what Maine offers in full. Maine’s diversity of wildlife and habitat cannot be matched by any state except Alaska. Maine residents enjoy fresh caught fish, mussels, lobster, scallops, clams, oysters, shrimp, salmon, halibut, haddock, and swordfish. No "flying it in" at exorbitant prices. World-class hunting includes bear, moose, deer, wild turkey, ruffed grouse, pheasant, upland game and waterfowl. http://www.state.me.us/ifw/

MILD CLIMATE IN COASTAL SOUTHERN MAINE
Summer days are hot but nights are cool.
Winter days and nights are warm by the sea.
SANFORD, MAINE (inland in middle of York County 16 miles northeast of Rochester, NH). Sanford had 20,806 people in the 2000. York county had 186,742 people.
Average temperatures:
January 22
April 45
July 70
October 49
For more cities and data

Independence?
Distance from Washington?
Next to Alaska, there is only one choice, MAINE!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 12:55:06 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2003, 01:40:56 am »

Finding Freedom Under the Big Sky
by Quincy Daniel OrHai, Bozeman Montana, July 4, 2003

I’m not in the habit of inviting people I don’t know to move to Montana. I believe most of you reading this essay are interested in having more freedom and liberty in your life. Perhaps you’ll even relocate for political purposes. Maybe you’ve some ideas about increasing liberty by lightening the yoke of government, etc.

That’s fine, but it’s not enough of a reason to choose Montana as the Freestate. I say: Ask not what will you do to Montana, but what will Montana do to you?

With or without the Freestate Project, Montana will continue to capture the very best of America’s liberty-loving people. Our cities and rural countryside have room for personal freedom to flourish. We welcome those who want to relocate in our land simply because they can live under our vast arch of blue sky. Montana’s Big Sky stretches well over 600 miles, from the rolling prairies of Medicine Rocks and Little Beaver Creek, south of the Missouri Breaks, to the northwest’s lush silent dripping cedar forests and the peach orchards of the Kootenai. This is a huge land, a land that is guaranteed to break your heart, to melt down what you think you know about yourself and recast your spirit into something bigger than words can say.

To be a Montanan isn’t as easy as just showing up here and getting a drivers license. To be a Montanan means to be accepted by other Montanans. That endorsement ain’t gonna come easy. To be a Montanan is an honor. For most Montanans, the Code of the West is still alive: Honesty, courage, loyalty, generosity, and fairness. We’re an eccentric collection of humanity here. Old-time cowboys, hard rock miners and high country loggers coexist (mostly) peacefully alongside pink punk hairdos, yuppie pot heads and internet home business entrepreneurs. What the Old West and the New West have in common are a deep belief in independence and self reliance (+85% gun ownership), rugged individualism, hospitality and western style ambiance. A deeper resonance (although also divisive) is our love of the land.

We’ve 147,046 square miles (16 times the size of our little sister New Hampshire) of beautiful mountains and open space, and only 902,195 liberty loving citizens. We’re self-sufficient in natural resources, although you won’t many find oranges growing here. Our existing state laws already have great respect for freedom, liberty and privacy. Of course we can improve! Let’s roll back property and income taxes, instigate common grand juries, put some teeth back into the recall laws, elect a Supreme Court more respectful of Montanans right to change our constitution, and fully inform our juries.

There’s a reason we call Montana ‘The Last Best Place’. It isn’t crowded here, and we don’t want it to get that way.So don’t plan on moving here unless you can respect us for what we are, and are as willing to be changed, inside out, as you’re keen to change our great state.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2003, 03:41:46 am by ZuG »
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Re:The Great State Debate Debates
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2003, 01:41:02 am »

No rebuttal was submitted for Montana. It is disqualified from the contest.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 01:03:52 am by ZuG »
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