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Author Topic: unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?  (Read 16039 times)

MaineShark

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2011, 02:21:20 pm »

But its not public employees... its the representatives of the People. They have the power to tax and spend. And those making the big pay won't be touched.

By your theory, a fence isn't guilty, because he just bought the stolen property from the thief - he didn't steal it, himself...

You can't be paid in blood money, and say that your hands are clean.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

Luck

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2011, 02:37:33 pm »

Quote
NH has been a majority Republican State for many years... decades to be honest... does that mean the Republicans were 'bought'?
Quote
JEM: In honesty, what has happened is that the Legislature has refused to limit the size and scope of government within the confines of the constitution through the budgeting process. They've failed to limit federal funding within the scope of US Con Art One Sect Eight in direct violation of NH Con Part First Article Seven... and this results in higher wages and benefits.
* Who has the power to do anything about unconstitutional actions by legislators? What can be done? - Class action lawsuits? Citizen's arrests of such legislators? Anything else?
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swamp_yankee

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2011, 02:41:56 pm »

Fidelity moved the employees to its remaining operations. It didn't have anything to do with unions, public or private.
Using that example is as bad as suggesting that Thompson moved to Massachussets because NH firearm laws were too stringent.
Or that Ethan Allen moved the furniture manufacturing operation to Vermont because NH was anti-timber.

NH has conservative fiscal policies? When did we get those?

I've studied the exodus of many businesses from Massachusetts. That was one of many examples. The cost of doing business is too high here, usually that cost is directly related to the collective costs of excessive compliance, litigation, taxes, fines and fees that are needed to prop up a bloated public sector. They are linked.  (Fortunately, Mass has enough natural assets to overcome some of its woes.)

With its current political make-up and powerful public unions, budgets cuts are difficult, so they go back to the well to squeeze more revenue from the private sector to support the public sector, and often this has a direct impact on the business climate in Mass. So yes, the mighty public sector unions of Massachusetts do have a direct impact on whether businesses choose to stay here or not. And when they do, like in RI, its because of favoritsim and inequitable sweetheart deals, not sound policy. Just the burdens of Romney Care alone often places businesses at a competitive disadvantage in Massachusetts.

And  you can play semantics, but in the normal channels of political conversation, NH is considered a more fiscally conservative state in general, but especially compared to its neighbors, MA, VT, RI, ME, NY...
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 03:06:19 pm by swamp_yankee »
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creaganlios

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2011, 04:53:59 pm »

If your going to hate on capitalism why are you even in the FSP?

 antistate, do you even understand what capitalism is? Have you read Smith's Wealth of Nations?  Not skewed libertarian propaganda, but his actual book?  Let me quote you from Smith:

"Our spinners are poor people, women commonly, scattered about in all different parts of the country, without support or protection...By extorting from the legislature bounties upon the exportation of their own linen, high duities upon the importantion of all foreign linen, and a total prohibition on the home consumption of some sorts of French linen, they [the mill masters] endeavor to sell their own goods as dear as possible...they are as intent to keep down the wages of their own weavers as the poor spinners, and it is by no means for the benefit of the workmen that they endeavor to raise the prioce of the complete work or tolower that of the rude materials. It is the industry that is carried on for the benefit of the rich and powerful that is principally encouraged by our mercantile system. That which is carried on for the benefit of the poor or the indigent is too often eiher neglected or opporessed."

Anyone who thinks that Smith's vision of capitalism was private free-for-all and government "hands-off" clearly misunderstands Smith: Smith was irate over the abuse of the powerless by large corporate interests, and he criticized a government that aided and abetted that oppression.  Smith's goal was NOT the elimination of government sanctions against industry, but the elimination of BOTH government AND industrial abuse of the POOR. That makes MY concerns far more in line with capitalism than your free-wheeling corporate state.
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creaganlios

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2011, 04:57:58 pm »

How many public employees are making, salary and benefits, six figures?

Very, very few.  The average teacher, sanitation worker, firefighter, office clerk, etc is making nowhere close to 6 figures. 

And in fact, many of the adminstration officials who DO make 6 figures are administraton and not even in the union or covered under the contracts you so gleefuly wish to eviscerate. You are engaging in uninformed rhetoris at the expense of objective reality.
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MaineShark

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2011, 05:09:29 pm »

Anyone who thinks that Smith's vision of capitalism was private free-for-all and government "hands-off" clearly misunderstands Smith: Smith was irate over the abuse of the powerless by large corporate interests, and he criticized a government that aided and abetted that oppression.  Smith's goal was NOT the elimination of government sanctions against industry, but the elimination of BOTH government AND industrial abuse of the POOR. That makes MY concerns far more in line with capitalism than your free-wheeling corporate state.

A) Smith isn't the be-all, end-all of capitalism.  Just for one example, Spooner was far better at providing a consistent theory.

B) All you want to do is have the government aid and abet oppression.  You imagine that Smith wouldn't be disgusted by your desire to have government workers be privileged to earn what often amounts to multiples of what private sector workers earn?  There are few clearer examples of state-granted privilege, than what they pay their own minions.

How many public employees are making, salary and benefits, six figures?
Very, very few.  The average teacher, sanitation worker, firefighter, office clerk, etc is making nowhere close to 6 figures.

Salary and benefits?  Quite a few, actually.  The benefit packages these workers get are occasionally (maybe even "often," depending upon how you define the word) worth as much or more than their wages.

And in fact, many of the adminstration officials who DO make 6 figures are administraton and not even in the union or covered under the contracts you so gleefuly wish to eviscerate. You are engaging in uninformed rhetoris at the expense of objective reality.

Nope, the numbers back me.  All you have is angry whining about how horrible freedom is.  Why not just move to Boston?  Lots of good union jobs, there.  I personally know an electrician who was making $75k per year, installing six light bulbs a day at the Big Dig - the union rep told him, on his first day, that if he put in more than six a day, he would be seen as a troublemaker, and then it devolved into barely-veiled threats against his person and property.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

antistate1190

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2011, 05:46:46 pm »

Quote
Capitalism is freedom and anything else is slavery.

OK, Mr. "vulgar libertarian*" - did you even read Tully's response about an imbalance of "market/bargaining power"... labor vs. owners of capital (employers)?

"Allowing parties to freely negotiate the terms of their employee contract ~ with equal bargaining power ~ is a libertarian position."

Did you read his post that "the private sector can be just as oppressive and liberty-denying as the government sector.  Powerful private interests have always forced less powerful people into slavery via tenancy, chattel, and/or indenture."


* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carson

Kevin Carson coined the pejorative term "vulgar libertarianism," a phrase that describes the use of a free market rhetoric in defense of corporate capitalism and economic inequality. According to Carson, the term is derived from the phrase "vulgar political economy," which Karl Marx described as an economic order that "deliberately becomes increasingly apologetic and makes strenuous attempts to talk out of existence the ideas which contain the contradictions [existing in economic life]."

Carson writes that vulgar libertarian apologists for capitalism use the term "free market" in an equivocal sense: they seem to have trouble remembering, from one moment to the next, whether they’re defending actually existing capitalism or free market principles. So we get the standard boilerplate article in The Freeman arguing that the rich can’t get rich at the expense of the poor, because "that’s not how the free market works"--implicitly assuming that this is a free market. When prodded, they’ll grudgingly admit that the present system is not a free market, and that it includes a lot of state intervention on behalf of the rich. But as soon as they think they can get away with it, they go right back to defending the wealth of existing corporations on the basis of "free market principles."

Much of Carson's writing is dedicated to critiquing other writers who he perceives as being vulgar libertarians. A sporadically recurring feature on his blog is called "Vulgar Libertarian Watch." Economists and organizations that he has accused of vulgar libertarianism include Ludwig von Mises, Milton Friedman, Madsen Pirie, Radley Balko and the Adam Smith Institute.

Carson is a halfstep away from Marx and Proudhon ideologically. I wouldn't trust a word he says. Capitalism is the only free market to ever exist. Yes we've never had true capitalism but there's been times in history when we were close and things were fine until the state came into existence.

What do you think should be done about gov. parasites demanding more of OUR tax dollars so they can be a little richer?
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creaganlios

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2011, 06:00:00 pm »

 I personally know an electrician who was making $75k per year, installing six light bulbs a day at the Big Dig - the union rep told him, on his first day, that if he put in more than six a day, he would be seen as a troublemaker, and then it devolved into barely-veiled threats against his person and property. Joe

Are you aware that most unionized electrican shops were prevented from bidding on contracts associated with The Big Dig?

Large Boston-area Corporations, in consort with Boston politicians, have succeeded in putting into place laws that require that all contractors bidding on public jobs meet stringent requirements relating to annual $ of work performed, bonding, and payscales unifrm with Boston area labor rates.  In all public bidding for jobs such as these, the vast majority of Massachusetts firms - including unionized firms - are unable to even bid on these jobs.  The result is the classic situation Smith described: a business carried on for the benefit of the rich and powerful, as Government and Big Business get into bed together. 

It has nothing to do with union labor as the cause of the problem, any more than you can blame corn farmers for high cereal prices. Union members are all hurt by the incestuous, powerful relationship between industry captains and government bureaucrats....yet, you continue, with a knee-jerk, visceral reaction, in blaming laborers rather than placing the blame where it belongs.
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swamp_yankee

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2011, 06:08:03 pm »

Total compensation is difficult to calculate because so much is hidden, and such goodies as private contracts and many scams are not calculated.


http://www.bostonherald.com/projects/your_tax_dollars.bg?src=State#page=1&results_per_page=20&order_by=annual_salary%20desc&src=State&action=get_data&payroll_search=&department_name=

But officially you have to get to page 512 to reach people with total compensations under $90,000

http://www.bostonherald.com/projects/your_tax_dollars.bg?src=State#page=512&results_per_page=20&order_by=earnings%20desc&src=State&action=get_data&payroll_search=&department_name=

Of course, its all in the family. You must be connected and believe the "correct" things to get a chance. Or your employment opportunites are limited, while you must pay for the cushy beaurocratic elite:

http://www.boston.com/yourtown/somerville/articles/2010/05/23/at_the_probation_department_patronage_is_job_one/

Quote:  The patronage jobs problem has existed in Massachusetts for so long, and become so ingrained that most on Beacon Hill had forgotten it was not only immoral, but illegal. From the Legislature, to the Attorney General, to even the courts themselves – no action has been taken – because it’s the way business has been done on Beacon Hill for decades.

http://massachusetts-election-2010.com/1625/senate-reacts-to-probation-department-scandal/

Its the middle of the great recession. How many people do you know are getting 19% pay raisees:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1253190

You know, they must pay them these high  salaries to compete with the private sector because we all know the market for parking attendents is 100,000 plus. But if your not in with the machine and believe the "correct" things, dont bother applying:


http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/2011_0203mass_pay_at_massport_some_parking_attendants_pull_in_100g_a_year/srvc=home&position=1


Even those “private sector” jobs like construction are rigged.  Again, not part of the machine and don’t believe the “correct” things. Don’t bother. Who gets the work?

 http://news.bostonherald.com/news/politics/view.bg?articleid=1143360&srvc=home&position=emailed

A cop and a union hack. Double dipping supreme.


On, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on it goes. Meanwhile, we get toll hikes, an increase in the state sales tax, and an increase in the liquor tax. Parking tickets in Boston are over $40.00 in most spots now and people are getting fined $1200 for not having health insurance.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 06:10:39 pm by swamp_yankee »
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MaineShark

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2011, 06:10:43 pm »

Are you aware that most unionized electrican shops were prevented from bidding on contracts associated with The Big Dig?

Large Boston-area Corporations, in consort with Boston politicians, have succeeded in putting into place laws that require that all contractors bidding on public jobs meet stringent requirements relating to annual $ of work performed, bonding, and payscales unifrm with Boston area labor rates.  In all public bidding for jobs such as these, the vast majority of Massachusetts firms - including unionized firms - are unable to even bid on these jobs.

Certainly.  Numerically, the majority of firms are excluded from all government contracts, whether they are union or not.

Of course, numerically, the majority of firms have only a handful of employees, so that has nothing to do with anything we're talking about.

Your silly little game doesn't work on anyone who can spot the difference between basic math terms.

The result is the classic situation Smith described: a business carried on for the benefit of the rich and powerful, as Government and Big Business get into bed together.

Yup.  And there's nothing more indicative of Big Business than unions.

It has nothing to do with union labor as the cause of the problem, any more than you can blame corn farmers for high cereal prices. Union members are all hurt by the incestuous, powerful relationship between industry captains and government bureaucrats....yet, you continue, with a knee-jerk, visceral reaction, in blaming laborers rather than placing the blame where it belongs.

No, I place the blame with all who deserve it.  I don't hypocritically except the laborers from their share.  Corporations that are in bed with the government deserve blame.  The government deserves blame.  The unions deserve blame.  And the laborers who are in the unions deserve blame.  And, particularly, anyone who takes blood money, deserves large amounts of blame.

There's plenty of blame to go around.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

creaganlios

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2011, 06:21:04 pm »

 And, particularly, anyone who takes blood money, deserves large amounts of blame.
Joe

Blood Money?

Nice rhetoric, but in the court of rational public opinion, your credibility now falls below 0 into negative numbers.

It is your brand of extreme theory that continues to plague libertarian movements in NH.

Maine.  Shark.  Appropriate moniker....
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swamp_yankee

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2011, 06:32:29 pm »

Its a great thing that disabled firefighers can collect and pursue their bodybuilding careers

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/07/14/on_injury_leave_firefighter_stood_out_as_bodybuilder/

And I sleep well knowing my nephews and nieces are being protected by firefighters, whom I pay for, that are doped up on cocaine and booze on the job:.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/10/04/autopsies_find_alcohol_some_cocaine_2_officials_say/

If only I were properly connected to the machines or a member of a victim class, maybe someday I can get a piece of that. A working stiff like me can only dream.


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MaineShark

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2011, 06:41:19 pm »

 And, particularly, anyone who takes blood money, deserves large amounts of blame.
Blood Money?

Nice rhetoric, but in the court of rational public opinion, your credibility now falls below 0 into negative numbers.

It is your brand of extreme theory that continues to plague libertarian movements in NH.

What happens if I don't pay my taxes?  The guns the cops carry are not just ornaments.

Yeah, it's not just theory.

The only thing "plaguing" the libertarian movement is Statists trying to go around calling themselves libertarians.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

swamp_yankee

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2011, 06:45:23 pm »

You know what else is really cool about strong public unions... they hire are fight for the mob and mob killers.

The union made sure gangster and toll booth worker Paul Moccia, who collected  $60,000+ collecting tolls in a union hack job, got his pay even after he was arrested for dismembering and boiling a rival drug dealer. Now that's how I want my tax dollars spent.  

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/2009_06_10_Union:_Keep_paying_slay_suspect/srvc=home&position=3
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creaganlios

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unions and land and such was: Protest Rally in Concord?
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2011, 06:49:20 pm »

Its a great thing that disabled firefighers can collect and pursue their bodybuilding careers

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/07/14/on_injury_leave_firefighter_stood_out_as_bodybuilder/

And I sleep well knowing my nephews and nieces are being protected by firefighters, whom I pay for, that are doped up on cocaine and booze on the job:.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/10/04/autopsies_find_alcohol_some_cocaine_2_officials_say/

If only I were properly connected to the machines or a member of a victim class, maybe someday I can get a piece of that. A working stiff like me can only dream.

That is academically dishonest at BEST.  If I was to find ONE problematic private sector worker in a Boston Globe article...would that serve as justification for trashing everyone who worksin the private sector?  Gimme a break....
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