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Author Topic: libertarians vs. christians  (Read 18362 times)

nanette31

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2011, 06:04:23 pm »

Recently, I saw a comment about how libertarians (in general) mock or strongly dislike born again Christians.
Is this true? how do people on this forum feel about Christians (not organized religion, but Christians; there is a difference)

Whats wrong with organized religion ? or people voluntarily organizing for whatever reason for that matter. They are probably the most charitable ppl around.


I dont see any religious sects pointing guns at me and forcing me to join. You could go and come as you please.
Now, the State on the other hand...


I never said there was anything wrong with organized religion or people volunteering.  I made that statement because I have had to clarify myself in the past when having conversations with people about Christ vs. organized religion.  It seems that many times people don't necessarily have issues with religion, but once Christ is mentioned, it becomes very heated.  I wanted to know where my views, as a born again Christian, stand in the eyes of libertarians.  I am not looking to walk into a lion's den; I just want to join in the fight against big govt and the attacks against personal liberty. 

I would not want to ask my three teenage kids to sacrifice the life they have and all the ties they have if we would be moving to a place where we were going to be mocked or discarded because of our views. If I want to bang my head against a wall with a group of people who don't want my help, or won't listen to my ideas,  I might as well stay in NY, because my voice isn't heard here either.


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nanette31

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2011, 06:06:16 pm »

Is there still a sect of hot young Christian girls who believe in spreading the love of Jesus through casual sex?  Because I'd definitely be OK with them.   :D


You have a great sense of humor. ;D
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nanette31

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2011, 06:11:27 pm »

It seems really simplistic to talk about people not liking "Christians" when that is such an incredibly non-specific term, and I don't just mean the different categorized labels like different denominations.  Even within a denomination, any particular individual who self-identifies as Christian can vary wildly from another in so many different ways.

There are Christians who's specific beliefs I might find profound, interesting, silly, hateful, benign, harmful, etc.  Collectivist views in general are misguided but talking about Christians that way seems like the perfect example case because they're that broadly varied.

When I hear some Christians justifying hateful attitudes with certain dogmatic portions of their particular belief system, then I  have no reservations about taking those specific Christians to task on those particular aspects of their beliefs.  On the other hand, I credit a certain self-identified Christian with having a profound impact on my own beliefs, a significant contribution to a path that led me to no longer consider myself atheist (though not Christian).

A lot of people expect to get a pass on having some of their ideas challenged because it's based on their religion.  As in "I believe that [fill_in_the_blank], and you should respect that belief because it's based on my religion."  I respect the right to beliefs, but not necessarily the beliefs themselves.  That's an unreasonable expectation.  If welcome having my beliefs challenged, particularly if those beliefs are foundational to my faith.  That would make them particularly worthy of deeper contemplation.


You're  a smart person; it is good to know that someone like you is working on the side of liberty.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 06:14:49 pm by nanette31 »
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2011, 08:13:13 pm »

90% of human beings need to believe in some all knowing, all seeing, all powerful force that is completely infallible.  If God does not fill that role, government does.

Pretty much all Bible centered Christians are well aware of the corruptibility of public officials and the need to keep their feet to the fire.
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Andvari

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2011, 03:36:45 am »

Recently, I saw a comment about how libertarians (in general) mock or strongly dislike born again Christians.
Is this true? how do people on this forum feel about Christians (not organized religion, but Christians; there is a difference)

Whats wrong with organized religion ? or people voluntarily organizing for whatever reason for that matter. They are probably the most charitable ppl around.


I dont see any religious sects pointing guns at me and forcing me to join. You could go and come as you please.
Now, the State on the other hand...


I never said there was anything wrong with organized religion or people volunteering.  I made that statement because I have had to clarify myself in the past when having conversations with people about Christ vs. organized religion.  It seems that many times people don't necessarily have issues with religion, but once Christ is mentioned, it becomes very heated.  I wanted to know where my views, as a born again Christian, stand in the eyes of libertarians.  I am not looking to walk into a lion's den; I just want to join in the fight against big govt and the attacks against personal liberty. 

I would not want to ask my three teenage kids to sacrifice the life they have and all the ties they have if we would be moving to a place where we were going to be mocked or discarded because of our views. If I want to bang my head against a wall with a group of people who don't want my help, or won't listen to my ideas,  I might as well stay in NY, because my voice isn't heard here either.



The christian-haters are the so called Keeniacs from the town of Keene, a small but very vocal group. If you and your children dont wanna be mocked, you'd probably wanna stay away from them. Otherwise, you'll be alright with the rest of Fsp..most seem cool.

Btw, im a NY'er and my voice isnt heard here either. They have really lived up to their name..the 'Empire State' :(
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MaineShark

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2011, 07:03:22 am »

The christian-haters are the so called Keeniacs from the town of Keene, a small but very vocal group. If you and your children dont wanna be mocked, you'd probably wanna stay away from them.

Interesting.  Could you provide some examples?  The "Keeniacs" that I know best are Quakers, so I don't think that they're "hating" Christians.  But maybe there are some others?  Like I said, please provide some examples...

Joe
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time4liberty

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2011, 07:17:31 am »

Recently, I saw a comment about how libertarians (in general) mock or strongly dislike born again Christians.
Is this true? how do people on this forum feel about Christians (not organized religion, but Christians; there is a difference)

I'm a Christian and a libertarian.

The morals of authoritarian Christians are not too strong, but too weak. They need to realize that to respond to others' immoral behavior with aggressive violence is itself immoral. I know of no Christian who would consider it right as an individual to kidnap and hold someone, or extort money from them on threat of violence, because they had a problem with alcohol, gluttony, miserliness, etc -- nor would they believe that such an attack would help the person solve these problems. Yet, somehow many Christians imagine that violence as a response to personal immorality becomes ok when done through the proxy of the state.

Violence is for self defense. I think Christians need to reach out to those who have problems with say, drugs, gambling, etc, in love, to help them turn their lives around. I think Christians need to stop imagining that extorting money from people is ok, if the money's going to be used for what they consider to be a good purpose.

The delusion that morality does not apply to the actions of large groups or majorities is not unique to Christians, but it is especially disappointing to me that they suffer from it so frequently -- just as it bothers me that more southern Christians didn't stand up against slavery, or German Christians against Nazism.
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dalebert

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2011, 11:28:05 am »

The christian-haters are the so called Keeniacs from the town of Keene, a small but very vocal group.

Who the heck are you and how many Keene folks have you met personally to justify this absurd blanket statement?  I know four Quakers and at least about 8 Keene folks who would self-identify as Christian just right off the top of my head.  Can you give us some idea of what media you saw or read that caused you to jump to this collectivist conclusion about an extremely diverse group of people?

creaganlios

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2011, 01:38:34 pm »

The christian-haters are the so called Keeniacs from the town of Keene, a small but very vocal group.

Who the heck are you and how many Keene folks have you met personally to justify this absurd blanket statement?  I know four Quakers and at least about 8 Keene folks who would self-identify as Christian just right off the top of my head.  Can you give us some idea of what media you saw or read that caused you to jump to this collectivist conclusion about an extremely diverse group of people?


+1 What he said. 
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Andvari

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2011, 03:51:40 pm »

The christian-haters are the so called Keeniacs from the town of Keene, a small but very vocal group.

Who the heck are you and how many Keene folks have you met personally to justify this absurd blanket statement?  I know four Quakers and at least about 8 Keene folks who would self-identify as Christian just right off the top of my head.  Can you give us some idea of what media you saw or read that caused you to jump to this collectivist conclusion about an extremely diverse group of people?


Yeh, i know what 'christians' you guys embrace...the fringe lefty liberal types.

But if its a christian who doesn't support homosexuality, prostitution or whatever kind of sexual lifestyle that he might morally object to..oh boy, you know he's gettin' ostracized from the little Keene circle.

We've already seen what yous did to Keith in another thread, he got the boot and he didn't even say he's against gay marriage...imagine if someone took a strong stance, he'd quickly get slapped with the catch-all 'bigot' tag.

You ask how many Keeniacs i've met. None, thank goodness. I've seen enough online to know what yous are about, and you are a dime a dozen here in Ny.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 03:54:13 pm by Andvari »
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creaganlios

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2011, 03:55:18 pm »

Yeh, i know what 'christians' you guys embrace...the fringe lefty liberal types.

Why did you place the word christian in quotation marks?
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2011, 07:09:30 pm »

There aren't types of Christians. Following only some of Christ's teaching doesn't exactly make one Christian.
And how would one support homosexuality or prostitution without engaging in it?
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antistate1190

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2011, 01:07:31 pm »

There aren't types of Christians. Following only some of Christ's teaching doesn't exactly make one Christian.
And how would one support homosexuality or prostitution without engaging in it?


Do you follow everything the Catholic church says?
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dalebert

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2011, 01:08:52 pm »

But if its a christian who doesn't support homosexuality, prostitution or whatever kind of sexual lifestyle that he might morally object to...



Quote
We've already seen what yous did to Keith in another thread, he got the boot...

He did?  What does that mean?  You mean the end of our friendship?  If so, you're right.  I would prolly give you "the boot"(?) from being my friend just for the way you've been acting on this thread.  It's my prerogative to pick my friends.  I can be as arbitrary as I like, though I think ending our friendship because he called me a fag all the time and was incredibly condescending certainly wasn't that arbitrary.

dalebert

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2011, 01:40:44 pm »

Yeh, i know what 'christians' you guys embrace...the fringe lefty liberal types.

You seem to have this impression of Keeniacs being incredibly tolerant or even, dare I say, accepting of all kinds of choices others make that don't harm anyone.  We don't call it lefty liberal.  We call it libertarian.

I think you're in for a shock if you ever get your ass up from in front of your computer to actually move.  I've lived in NH for almost 4 years now, first in Manchester, then in the Seacoast area, and now in Keene, soon to have "dual-citizenship" between Manch and Keene, and I travel all over for events.  I mix a lot in FSP circles and am quite well-known.  I speak from broad first-hand experience when I say that tolerant attitude you're so terrified of is pretty ubiquitous all over.  I'm not saying there aren't social conservatives in certain circles but sure as Shirley, that tolerance isn't geographically isolated to a little clique of folks in Keene.

I'm sure someone will back me up here.

Sorry to burst your bubble.  Okay, not really.  I'm kind of enjoying bursting your bubble.
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