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Author Topic: libertarians vs. christians  (Read 18407 times)

nanette31

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libertarians vs. christians
« on: April 01, 2011, 08:28:43 pm »

Recently, I saw a comment about how libertarians (in general) mock or strongly dislike born again Christians.
Is this true? how do people on this forum feel about Christians (not organized religion, but Christians; there is a difference)
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antistate1190

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2011, 08:58:49 pm »

Recently, I saw a comment about how libertarians (in general) mock or strongly dislike born again Christians.
Is this true? how do people on this forum feel about Christians (not organized religion, but Christians; there is a difference)

I only hate Christianity when it becomes a justification for statism.
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nanette31

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2011, 09:09:45 pm »

Using the word hate is very strong, so I am thinking you have seen or even experienced some gross attacks on personal freedom.  Could you give me examples of what your talking about? 
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rossby

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2011, 10:21:19 pm »

I think libertarians (in general) hate Christians as much as Christians hate libertarians. S'just pointless stereotyping. Some libertarians don't like Christians, sure. Some libertarians also don't like Italian cuisine. *shrug*
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freedomroad

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2011, 10:31:57 pm »

Recently, I saw a comment about how libertarians (in general) mock or strongly dislike born again Christians.
Is this true? how do people on this forum feel about Christians (not organized religion, but Christians; there is a difference)

That vast majority of libertarians in the US are Christian.  However, I know some libertarians that take great pride in being libertarian that are openly opposed to Christians.  I find this to be especially common in the libertarians that call themselves anarchists.  Of course, I know non-libertarians that are openly opposed to Christians, too.

Personally, I'm a quaker and use live free or die to explain my political thoughts.  I have nothing against Christians or born again Christians.

Since you put this thread in the Prospective Participants section, maybe you are talking about FSPers.  The last FSP President was a Christian.  Most of the FSPers I know have nothing against Christians in general but I do know some that do.  For example, Free Talk Live co-hosts Ian and Mark frequently say negative things about Christians on their show.  However, at least two of the other co-hosts on the show are Christians so it seems they don't hate Christians.  I guess I'm not aware of any libertarians that I personally know that actually hate Christians.
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Alex Libman

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2011, 10:37:37 pm »

Is there still a sect of hot young Christian girls who believe in spreading the love of Jesus through casual sex?  Because I'd definitely be OK with them.   :D
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Andvari

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2011, 12:33:53 am »

Recently, I saw a comment about how libertarians (in general) mock or strongly dislike born again Christians.
Is this true? how do people on this forum feel about Christians (not organized religion, but Christians; there is a difference)

Whats wrong with organized religion ? or people voluntarily organizing for whatever reason for that matter. They are probably the most charitable ppl around.


I dont see any religious sects pointing guns at me and forcing me to join. You could go and come as you please.
Now, the State on the other hand...

« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 12:38:00 am by Andvari »
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2011, 05:25:33 am »

Alexis de Tocqueville criticized early America as tying Christianity and liberty together so tightly that most Americans couldn't separate the ideas.  For post-puritanical society, the individual had to chose between sin and good Christian living.  Of course, the vast majority were supposed to choose the Way, either now, or when they came around to Biblical thinking.
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creaganlios

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2011, 06:44:36 am »

For the record, I am a libertarian (though a leftist-Libertarian) and a Christian (though a member of the veryl-organized Episcopal Church), and I generally have no problem with neither.

Some libertarians AND Some  Christians would question my purity regarding each.

And I do criticize some stripes of libertarianism, as well as Theocracts.

So, it aint as cut and dry as "does X dislike Y?"
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Argentum

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2011, 07:54:58 am »

There are a lot of libertarians, usually but not exclusively anarchists, who feel that religion is "irrational" just like Statism is irrational.  And since they pride themselves on being rational, logical beings, they not only reject statism but religion.  Of this group, a certain segment think religious people are stupid. 

There are people out there who I call fake Christians (Robertson, Fallwell, Wallis, etc.), just like there are fake liberals and fake conservatives.  These fake Christians lead a lot of people to reject real Christians (Marshall Fritz, Tom Woods, Jacob Hornberger, Katherine Albrecht, etc.) and Christianity. 

I think that it is a compariing religion and the State is a false analogy.  Religion is (or should be) voluntarily joined and it has no coercive powers.  The State, on the other hand, is imposed on people and is by definition coercive.

On top of this, it is bad strategy for libertarians to make fun of Christians.  As a previous poster commented, most Americans identify as Christians.  We need to bring them over to the liberty side.  One of the commandments says "Thou shalt not steal".  If we can convince these people that taxation is theft, they should adopt libertarianism.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2011, 08:03:33 am »

It will turn out to be not so smart for the Republicans.
Bettencourt really stepped in it.

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MTPorcupine3

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2011, 08:10:00 am »

I'd love to jump into this discussion. However, I don't know what a libertarian is, and I don't know what a Christian is.

I answer questions such as this on a case by case basis, after making sure all parties concerned agree what particular terms mean.

dalebert

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2011, 01:19:01 pm »

It seems really simplistic to talk about people not liking "Christians" when that is such an incredibly non-specific term, and I don't just mean the different categorized labels like different denominations.  Even within a denomination, any particular individual who self-identifies as Christian can vary wildly from another in so many different ways.

There are Christians who's specific beliefs I might find profound, interesting, silly, hateful, benign, harmful, etc.  Collectivist views in general are misguided but talking about Christians that way seems like the perfect example case because they're that broadly varied.

When I hear some Christians justifying hateful attitudes with certain dogmatic portions of their particular belief system, then I  have no reservations about taking those specific Christians to task on those particular aspects of their beliefs.  On the other hand, I credit a certain self-identified Christian with having a profound impact on my own beliefs, a significant contribution to a path that led me to no longer consider myself atheist (though not Christian).

A lot of people expect to get a pass on having some of their ideas challenged because it's based on their religion.  As in "I believe that [fill_in_the_blank], and you should respect that belief because it's based on my religion."  I respect the right to beliefs, but not necessarily the beliefs themselves.  That's an unreasonable expectation.  If welcome having my beliefs challenged, particularly if those beliefs are foundational to my faith.  That would make them particularly worthy of deeper contemplation.

nanette31

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2011, 05:34:52 pm »

I think libertarians (in general) hate Christians as much as Christians hate libertarians. S'just pointless stereotyping. Some libertarians don't like Christians, sure. Some libertarians also don't like Italian cuisine. *shrug*


If a person is a Christian, they are directed by Christ to love their neighbor as they love themselves. Therefore, they shouldn't hate anyone.
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nanette31

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Re: libertarians vs. christians
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2011, 05:46:46 pm »

Recently, I saw a comment about how libertarians (in general) mock or strongly dislike born again Christians.
Is this true? how do people on this forum feel about Christians (not organized religion, but Christians; there is a difference)

That vast majority of libertarians in the US are Christian.  However, I know some libertarians that take great pride in being libertarian that are openly opposed to Christians.  I find this to be especially common in the libertarians that call themselves anarchists.  Of course, I know non-libertarians that are openly opposed to Christians, too.

Personally, I'm a quaker and use live free or die to explain my political thoughts.  I have nothing against Christians or born again Christians.

Since you put this thread in the Prospective Participants section, maybe you are talking about FSPers.  The last FSP President was a Christian.  Most of the FSPers I know have nothing against Christians in general but I do know some that do.  For example, Free Talk Live co-hosts Ian and Mark frequently say negative things about Christians on their show.  However, at least two of the other co-hosts on the show are Christians so it seems they don't hate Christians.  I guess I'm not aware of any libertarians that I personally know that actually hate Christians.

The more I look into libertarian views, the more as a Christian, I like. Some of the social issues are a problem for me personally, but that doesn't deter me from standing side by side with people who believe in freedom and individual rights. 

I posted this here because it seemed that most  FSP ers are libertarians (am I right about that?). And if i am considering a move with my family, I would want to know that, even though we won't agree on everything, we will be accepted and can work together to make necessary changes in this country.

PS I wasn't aware of a libertarian Christian rift either, but when I saw that comment, and more after that, on a different forum (not this FSP one), I was surprised and wanted to hear from people directly.
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