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Author Topic: Reiterating the Importance of Population  (Read 15173 times)

Penfist

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2003, 12:55:42 pm »

Doug and I do think we scared one real estate agent but I haven't had a chance to call him yet to verify that.
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Stumpy

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2003, 12:59:38 pm »

Yep, I carried my 45 Colt automatic all week.

It was concealed, but this type of weapon concealed under a summer shirt isn’t what you would call discreet.

We spoke to all types of people, including a policeman who knew I was from out of state. Even though New Hampshire does not boast a gun culture, NOBODY seemed to have a problem with me being armed.

I think the realtor that Trevor is speaking of, was frightened when Trevor went to his truck to fetch his laptop, but that’s my guess. I know that seems improbable, but you had to be there.

It’s a long (funny) story.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2003, 01:43:21 pm by Doug(stumpy) »
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Dave Mincin

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2003, 04:36:29 pm »

I chuckled everytime I think about the story! ;D  Think the porcupines with a sense of humor would really enjoy it! :)
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Stumpy

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2003, 04:40:49 pm »

I’ll write it up when I get a chance. That is, unless Trevor would like to do it.

You gotta know that realtor is getting razzed by everyone in town. I hope the lady he abandoned wasn’t his wife.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2003, 04:57:30 pm by Doug(stumpy) »
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Robert H.

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2003, 12:27:30 am »

If you wanted to minimize risks on long trips, you'd install an auxiliary gas tank.  I don't see the correlation between the prudence of filling up at 1/4to 1/2 full and planning on the project never hitting 20,000 members.

An auxilliary tank is not as cost effective as filling up before you have a chance to run out, and you'd still have to fill the auxilliary from time to time as well.  As for the correlation between this example and the FSP, it simply boils down to not taking the riskiest path when there are so many unknowns before you and very little chance that you'll be starting over again if you fail the first time.

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As far as planning on the project not hitting 20,000, all I have to say is: If you play to lose, you will.

I don't see how advocating that we consider taking a safer route is playing to lose.  I don't believe that the prospects of our success are equal between the states.

As for "exit strategies," emphasizing the importance of population is not an exit strategy because it does not depend upon failure before it can be implemented.  People sometimes think of it only in the case of a worst-case scenario (we don't get 20,000, or whatever), but there are much more positive benefits to it than that: such as the ability to influence a larger number of people more readily.

Dave Mincin

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2003, 06:25:28 am »

To influence people, you must first gain acceptance and trust.  This is a long and difficult process when you have no friends.  I have been there.  No organization there to support you and help you gain credibility is a
big risk unless you are willing to wait the 3-5 years it takes to establish credibility and trust and then it is only a maybe.  The choice is simple, begin to build a free state now, or wait 3-5 years and maybe begin?
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JonM

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2003, 09:56:08 am »

If you wanted to minimize risks on long trips, you'd install an auxiliary gas tank.  I don't see the correlation between the prudence of filling up at 1/4to 1/2 full and planning on the project never hitting 20,000 members.

An auxilliary tank is not as cost effective as filling up before you have a chance to run out, and you'd still have to fill the auxilliary from time to time as well.  As for the correlation between this example and the FSP, it simply boils down to not taking the riskiest path when there are so many unknowns before you and very little chance that you'll be starting over again if you fail the first time.

In my mind the auxiliary tank isn't to increase your milage, it's for when the "last gas for 100 miles" station has run out of gas, ie, unexpected events.  But this analogy digresses too far.  I think we have different views of where the risk lies.

Quote
Quote
As far as planning on the project not hitting 20,000, all I have to say is: If you play to lose, you will.

I don't see how advocating that we consider taking a safer route is playing to lose.  I don't believe that the prospects of our success are equal between the states.

As for "exit strategies," emphasizing the importance of population is not an exit strategy because it does not depend upon failure before it can be implemented.  People sometimes think of it only in the case of a worst-case scenario (we don't get 20,000, or whatever), but there are much more positive benefits to it than that: such as the ability to influence a larger number of people more readily.


If our target states had 1.2 million rabid statists in them, I might agree.  But the reason Montana, New Hampshire, Wyoming and the others are on the short list and Rhode Island isn't is because they're not teeming over with frothing at the mouth people demanding more government in their lives.  If there were, 20,000 people would be a useless drop in bucket, their pleading for a return to the days of individual liberty unheard against the cry of the masses demanding more handouts.

Once the target state is picked, this forum should shut down and the recruitment forum should hit overdrive, cause there are ~15,000 people you have to convince to pack up and move to someplace else.  If we don't hit that 20,000 number, everyone who signed up is released from their obligation, so it will be catch as catch can on who moves to a fallback state.  WHEN we hit 20,000, we have five years to find out who puts up or shuts up.

Now I don't see a large population in most of these states as a detriment, I see it as a tremendous recruitment base of people who don't have to move to join up.  In that view, the more liberty loving people who are already there, the better.  
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Hank

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2003, 07:41:49 pm »

If you all want an ironclad recruiting attraction PICK DELAWARE!
Lots of land, warm climate, big metropolitian areas next door.

Do you want the Free State to succeed or do you want 20,000 wannabe activists diluted among a million voters?

Population, population, population.

There are more statists in New Hampshire or in Idaho than in all of Wyoming.
You only have 20,000 troops.  You pick the less numerous enemy.
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Kelton

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2003, 07:56:02 pm »


There are more statists in New Hampshire or in Idaho than in all of Wyoming.
You only have 20,000 troops.  You pick the less numerous enemy.

But then there are more friends in Idaho than in any other state too!  
The other side of the argument is that even in Wyoming, we are just a tiny minority trying to tip the scales.  

The problem with applying that logic to the FSP plan is that cumbersome number 20,000; the recruitment of such a large group of people to move, change their lives, their jobs, everything to try something that has never been done before is a great task, especially considering many of the people we might try to recruit come from places like California.

Low population can also work against you in other ways, as I touched upon in this thread: http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2673;start=msg38788#msg38788
« Last Edit: July 30, 2003, 07:56:55 pm by exitus »
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JonM

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2003, 08:00:28 pm »

If you all want an ironclad recruiting attraction PICK DELAWARE!
Lots of land, warm climate, big metropolitian areas next door.

Do you want the Free State to succeed or do you want 20,000 wannabe activists diluted among a million voters?

Population, population, population.

There are more statists in New Hampshire or in Idaho than in all of Wyoming.
You only have 20,000 troops.  You pick the less numerous enemy.

How exactly are you quantifying the number of statists in New Hampshire and Idaho?
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Zxcv

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2003, 08:42:28 pm »

Quote
Now I don't see a large population in most of these states as a detriment, I see it as a tremendous recruitment base of people who don't have to move to join up.

Jon, I'm wondering about this. I don't think this is so.

When George dreamed up his scheme a while back to boost the pro-NH vote by recruiting NH residents and suggesting they can opt out of all states but NH, we had a big brouhaha about that. Some thought that was a little fishy because the point of FSP was to move people to the chosen state.  ::)  Anyway, when we resolved that by disallowing more such recruitment, some subsidiary questions came up, such as, could we recruit for the chosen state from within the chosen state? Your point, in other words. If my memory is not failing me, I believe the answer from the board was no. The next 15,000 have to be recruited from outside the chosen state.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure...   :)
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JonM

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2003, 08:58:50 pm »

Quote
Now I don't see a large population in most of these states as a detriment, I see it as a tremendous recruitment base of people who don't have to move to join up.

Jon, I'm wondering about this. I don't think this is so.

When George dreamed up his scheme a while back to boost the pro-NH vote by recruiting NH residents and suggesting they can opt out of all states but NH, we had a big brouhaha about that. Some thought that was a little fishy because the point of FSP was to move people to the chosen state.  ::)  Anyway, when we resolved that by disallowing more such recruitment, some subsidiary questions came up, such as, could we recruit for the chosen state from within the chosen state? Your point, in other words. If my memory is not failing me, I believe the answer from the board was no. The next 15,000 have to be recruited from outside the chosen state.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure...   :)

People who join before the state is chosen who live in the chosen state are members and count towards the 20,000, so long as they didn't opt out of every one of the other 9 states.  People who live in the chosen state who join after it is chosen do not count towards the 20,000, but I'm sure they'd be welcome as friends.

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Zxcv

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2003, 09:36:54 pm »

That's correct.
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