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Author Topic: Reiterating the Importance of Population  (Read 15387 times)

Sebastian

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2003, 10:42:20 am »

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If for every year 5,000* FSPers move to a target state and 200,000* other people do so (many importing statist/socialists attitudes from nearby states), the effectiveness of the FSP migration can be neutralalized.
If the FSP is even slightly successful, why would statist/socialists from nearby states continue to migrate into the FSP state?

If they continue to migrate because they feel like they have to fight us off, then we've won round 1...

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Robert H.

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2003, 10:54:42 am »

Quote
If for every year 5,000* FSPers move to a target state and 200,000* other people do so (many importing statist/socialists attitudes from nearby states), the effectiveness of the FSP migration can be neutralalized.
If the FSP is even slightly successful, why would statist/socialists from nearby states continue to migrate into the FSP state?

Economic opportunity:  lower cost goods, higher paying jobs, the ability to start a new business easily.

Statists like prosperity as much as anyone else, they just don't understand much about what creates or maintains it.  This is another reason why it is so important to give ourselves as many advantages as possible starting off, so that we can get as many disincentives to statism implemented as possible.  Otherwise, people moving in to take immediate advantage of the economic situation could end up undoing much of what we've managed to accomplish over the long run.

JonM

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2003, 10:56:11 am »

I've been reading the forums ever since I heard about the project on that NPR broadcast a few months ago.  I've only occasionally wanted to chime in, but never enough to actually take the time.  Congratulations for getting me off my behind RobertH.  When I got in my car last night a little after 7, NPR was on (Car Talk at 6 you know), the Motley Fool radio show was on, and they were interviewing the CEO of overstock.com.  They asked him what he thought about selling overstock.com to another company.  His reply: "As far as selling it, we have no exit strategy.  I, as an investor, I won't listen to somebody who tells me they have an exit strategy.  That's like entering a marriage with an exit strategy.  The best exit strategy is being profitable and building a great company and someday good things can happen if you do that.  But we literally, I never think about selling the company.  You build it as if you're going to own it 10 years." *

So as for this:


Because we're (almost) 5,000 voting on some states that may need up to 20,000 for this idea to succeed, and there's no guarantee that we'll get them.  It's the same reason that I stop for gas before I absolutely have to on a trip: I have no guarantee that I'll be able to get it again before I run out.  I don't plan to be caught on "E" with no gas station in sight.

I'm not averse to taking risks, but I do prefer to have as many advantages on my side as possible going into it.  

If you wanted to minimize risks on long trips, you'd install an auxiliary gas tank.  I don't see the correlation between the prudence of filling up at 1/4to 1/2 full and planning on the project never hitting 20,000 members.

As far as planning on the project not hitting 20,000, all I have to say is: If you play to lose, you will.


* As of today the archive of this is here: http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.jhtml?prgDate=07/04/2003&prgId=15
« Last Edit: July 07, 2003, 11:02:57 am by JonM »
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Zack Bass

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2003, 11:08:27 am »



Statists like prosperity as much as anyone else, they just don't understand much about what creates or maintains it.  This is another reason why it is so important to give ourselves as many advantages as possible starting off, so that we can get as many disincentives to statism implemented as possible.  Otherwise, people moving in to take immediate advantage of the economic situation could end up undoing much of what we've managed to accomplish over the long run.


This won't be important at first, but it's going to be a great concern down the road.  I'm not so worried that Statists will bother to move to a libertarian State just to give us grief, but they sure as heck will come for the goodies, unless we quickly make the State the kind of place they abhor.
In doing that, of course, we will also make the State a place that the current Statist residents will abhor....

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Zack Bass

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2003, 11:15:00 am »


I, as an investor, I won't listen to somebody who tells me they have an exit strategy.  That's like entering a marriage with an exit strategy.


You're on your first marriage, aren't you?
I felt like that, first four times.  Learned my lesson.  Last three I made sure I had that ante-nuptial, and next time I will too.  And some other stuff too, since courts don't believe in the Sanctity of Contracts when it comes to Marriage and Child Support.

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JonM

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2003, 11:24:28 am »


I, as an investor, I won't listen to somebody who tells me they have an exit strategy.  That's like entering a marriage with an exit strategy.


You're on your first marriage, aren't you?
I felt like that, first four times.  Learned my lesson.  Last three I made sure I had that ante-nuptial, and next time I will too.  And some other stuff too, since courts don't believe in the Sanctity of Contracts when it comes to Marriage and Child Support.



You'd have to ask Patrick Byrne that, it's his quote.
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Zack Bass

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2003, 11:33:53 am »


As far as planning on the project not hitting 20,000, all I have to say is: If you play to lose, you will.


Sorry, once again I made the mistake of assuming that when you quote without criticism you agree with what is quoted.

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Leonard

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2003, 12:02:26 pm »

I'm not so worried that Statists will bother to move to a libertarian State just to give us grief, but they sure as heck will come for the goodies, unless we quickly make the State the kind of place they abhor.
In doing that, of course, we will also make the State a place that the current Statist residents will abhor....
Not necessarily true.  Different statists want the state doing different things.  Some of them want to regulate their neighbors' consensual activites.  Some of them want their neighbors paying taxes to be spent For The Children or whatnot.  Some of them want to pry the guns out of their neighbors' hands.  So it is quite possible to offend only the statists outside of a particular state.  This is one of the wonderful side-effects of guns in the movement, I'd say.  Libertarians (and even Western statists) don't fear them.  

I have to laugh a bit reading this, seeing as in other threads you are going on about how you have been "threatened" by Wyomingites.  Do you see that they have deterred you, and with just a few lines of (cheap) speech?  But is not this exactly the sort of thing you would think is a good idea, once we have chosen a state - cheaply deterring outsiders who we think would be bad neighbors?

Seems to me some of those Westerners are just talking in way that they think will keep out the wrong sorts - California types.  We should not let such talk deter us - we're not the wrong sorts.  In fact such talk might well be scored as an asset for a state.  

I don't worry too much about any of the Western states under our consideration being overrun with statists.  That's because of the gun issue, mainly - coastal liberals are terrified of guns.   It also is a testament to those states' remoteness, and their (perceived) bad winters.

I do worry about NH being swamped with statists.  Other than accessibility, the reality of the place does not seem to be much different than the Western states, but the perceptions of it are.
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Kelton Baker

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2003, 12:04:21 pm »


Because we're (almost) 5,000 voting on some states that may need up to 20,000 for this idea to succeed, and there's no guarantee that we'll get them.  It's the same reason that I stop for gas before I absolutely have to on a trip: I have no guarantee that I'll be able to get it again before I run out.  I don't plan to be caught on "E" with no gas station in sight.

I'm not averse to taking risks, but I do prefer to have as many advantages on my side as possible going into it.  

If you wanted to minimize risks on long trips, you'd install an auxiliary gas tank.  I don't see the correlation between the prudence of filling up at 1/4to 1/2 full and planning on the project never hitting 20,000 members.

As far as planning on the project not hitting 20,000, all I have to say is: If you play to lose, you will.
The number 20,000 is one major reason I continue to support Idaho.  That and my observation of reaction to the FSP at the last California LP Convention:

When Jason Sorens announced the FSP to the interested attendees at the California LP meeting, a lot of people laughed-off the whole project for its consideration of only "cold states".  Several people came up to me as I manned the FSP booth and informed me that they were disappointed that Nevada was no longer being considered.  It seems, most Libertarians from the Nation's most populous state are pretty content with warm weather.  It is not fair to simply call them "sunshine patriots" as some amazing activism for liberty has come out of California.  Top activists we wish to attract remain in this statist, socialist state and not necessarily from more libertarian states like the top states in our listing.

The largest and greatest pool of potential activist supporters for the FSP do not necessarily all come from our top choice candidate states, they come from California,Nevada,Florida and other warm and populous states where liberty is a much lesser factor in livability factors.

While our most populous states have more people than the smaller states, they have more people for very good reasons.  Those reasons, such as jobs, and the weather that Idaho offers are also a potential draw for attracting for the remaining 15,000 activists and those liberty-hungry people to follow.

Another reason I support Idaho is because of the opportunity to interact with a larger group of existing libertarian-leaning individuals and thus influence and inspire movements in the smaller populations in Montana and Wyoming (and additional carry-over of ideas and influence in Nevada to the South!)  

Think about that thought for a minute, please.

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Sebastian

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2003, 12:07:13 pm »

I can't wait to leave this heat behind.
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Dave Mincin

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2003, 12:08:18 pm »

Not about Faith, well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me the FSP is all about Faith, my belief in the porcupines I have met.  My Faith in liberty, my Faith that most people whatever we call them really long for Freedom!  Our task is to spread the word of Freedom, and my Faith leads me to believe the people will respond!

Elizabeth was so right when she said at the Getaway, "None of us know what we are doing."  So true Elizabeth, so true, but I am so heartened when I see how the leadership is learning, getting better at spreading the word of freedom, how individual porcupines are learning and growing, working together, WOW, my Faith tells me we can move mountains!

Political activism, organizing, and promoting NH seems to be a dirty word to some, they call it hipe, and spin.  Well to those I say, what is political activism?  What will it take for us to gain real political power?  And to the what if, back up plan group, I say were is your Faith?

To those who bury their head in the numbers and say no, no, I say YES, YES, falure is not an option!  And I am so hopeful the the porcupines who have not yet made there choice will realize that NH is leading the way!

Dave

« Last Edit: July 07, 2003, 12:10:55 pm by marshrobert1 »
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Kelton Baker

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2003, 12:20:29 pm »

Not about Faith, well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me the FSP is all about Faith, my belief in the porcupines I have met.  My Faith in liberty, my Faith that most people whatever we call them really long for Freedom!  Our task is to spread the word of Freedom, and my Faith leads me to believe the people will respond!

Elizabeth was so right when she said at the Getaway, "None of us know what we are doing."  So true Elizabeth, so true, but I am so heartened when I see how the leadership is learning, getting better at spreading the word of freedom, how individual porcupines are learning and growing, working together, WOW, my Faith tells me we can move mountains!

Political activism, organizing, and promoting NH seems to be a dirty word to some, they call it hipe, and spin.  Well to those I say, what is political activism?  What will it take for us to gain real political power?  And to the what if, back up plan group, I say were is your Faith?

I agree,  the number 20,000 itself is taken a bit on faith, in fact I used the word faith to describe this whole endeavor when I started the following :The Premise of Viability: The Population Question
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JonM

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2003, 12:25:24 pm »

Not necessarily true.  Different statists want the state doing different things.  Some of them want to regulate their neighbors' consensual activites.  Some of them want their neighbors paying taxes to be spent For The Children or whatnot.  Some of them want to pry the guns out of their neighbors' hands.  So it is quite possible to offend only the statists outside of a particular state.  This is one of the wonderful side-effects of guns in the movement, I'd say.  Libertarians (and even Western statists) don't fear them.

There's a commercial on a Boston radio station right now for a rifle range in Manchester New Hampshire, where they encourage people to come rent machine guns (and other weapons) and fire away.  AK-47s, MP-5s, UZIs and the like.  "Out of state residents please bring a picture ID."
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Zack Bass

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2003, 12:34:57 pm »


I have to laugh a bit reading this, seeing as in other threads you are going on about how you have been "threatened" by Wyomingites.  Do you see that they have deterred you, and with just a few lines of (cheap) speech?  But is not this exactly the sort of thing you would think is a good idea, once we have chosen a state - cheaply deterring outsiders who we think would be bad neighbors?


Of course; I thought of this as I wrote it.  But I don't think we can effectively keep them away so cheaply.  Fortunately, we'll have a lot of leverage once we control the State, and we have a while before the lure of goodies begins to tempt them.
It'll take more than macho words to keep them out once they smell money.  And in fact Foreman Brucie's and Hank Hill's words alone aren't keeping me from Wyoming, they just make me ask a lot of questions to see if there's something backing them up.  I personally have no objection to shooting back at a bunch of cowboys (after I trade in my SKS for a Hunting Rifle, many of which, despite what the gungrabbers tell you, are far more powerful than any Assault Weapon), but that sort of thing is counterproductive as far as the goals of the FSP are concerned.

The main reason I keep going on and on about the Threats is that I can definitely prove that they are Threats, yet some people (including Jason, at one time) have tried to pretend that they were not Threats.  Sure, you can say they were Empty Threats, that he couldn't or wouldn't really carry them out, but that's true of 99% of the Threats you see on the InterNet, and we ought not to allow such things here.  You never know when you're dealing with that one percent.

And think about one other thing:  Why in the world would a Freedom Lover want to deter the FSP from moving to his State and Liberating him?  The only possible reason is that he is not a Liberty Lover, he likes the Status Quo and he is opposed to our goals, no matter if we phrase them sweetly or roughly.  So don't pander to his sort.

Quote

I don't worry too much about any of the Western states under our consideration being overrun with statists.  That's because of the gun issue, mainly - coastal liberals are terrified of guns.   It also is a testament to those states' remoteness, and their (perceived) bad winters.

I do worry about NH being swamped with statists.  Other than accessibility, the reality of the place does not seem to be much different than the Western states, but the perceptions of it are.


I think you're right.  This is a plus for the long-term advantage of the West.  But I think we can make even New Hampshire secure from them, with some vigilance.

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Dave Mincin

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Re:Reiterating the Importance of Population
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2003, 12:43:57 pm »

Ask Doug!  He was packing all week at the Getaway, he and Trevor traveled extensively looking for property and getting his read on the people that live there.  Not so much as a stare from anyone, not even the police!
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