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Author Topic: Is NH being invaded by statists?  (Read 14423 times)

robmayn

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2003, 04:06:23 pm »

Up until the aftermath of the last election, I was of the opinion that New Hampshire had finally started down the
migration induced path towards statism that Vermont has already traveled.  New Hampshire seemed like a beacon of freedom to us Vermonters fighting the tide of socialism here.  Then from 1997-2002, Jeanne Shaheen, a Democrat, was governor. She created lots of new programs to catch New Hampshire up in spending for liberal causes.  The result being that New Hampshire had the largest percent spending increase for those years than any other state.  http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-06-23-state-budgets-usat_x.htm  Of course, they were starting from a lower base of spending and still rank at the lowest end in terms state spending.

It now seems that New Hampshire is is the process of rejecting the Shaheen legacy, which has persuaded me that 1997-2002 were not normal years.  This, plus my experience of seeing some of Vermont's best liberty activists migrate to New Hampshire, has convinced me that the bulk of New Hampshire migration is not statist.
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schletty

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2003, 08:01:02 pm »

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Sorry, schletty.... I'm not quite catching what you are saying.... Could you provide an example of a theoretical situation, please? For instance, are you saying that the free state might be invaded my people who come for the lax cannabis laws, but want high taxes for governmental handouts?

You're on the right track. I was thinking in terms of the lax drug laws and state-funded treatment and healthy usage programs. I had considered JonM's point, but it might be a bit of a stereotype to assume that pro-cannabis people would be too burnt to vote, etc.
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schletty

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2003, 08:11:15 pm »

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I could see that argument, but then, you're assuming they'd actually remember when to show up and vote.

BTW, this is only one theoretical scenario. The lines tend to fall along the left-leaning/right-leaning debate. You might also find social cons who favor economic freedoms while curbing freedoms of association where it suits them. I would have trouble imagining too many of these pouring in from MA though. ;)
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JonM

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2003, 12:20:36 pm »

To understand whether the people moving to New Hampshire are statists or not, one must have an idea on who the statists in Massachusetts are.

Initiative petitions (ballot questions, which are not always initiative petitions, some times the legislature will throw one on there) have shown a varying degree of non statist sentiment from the entire population of Massachusetts.  In 1998 59% of the population voted to reduce the state income tax from 5.85% to 5% (the value it had been before the late 80s fiscal meltdown).  Several times ballot questions to introduce a graduated income tax have failed.

For a legislative constitutional amendment to be adopted a majority of ballots cast must be yes.  For an initiative petition to pass 30% of the voters must cast yes ballots, and the yes ballots must outnumber the no ballots.  So 32% yes, 25% no, 45% blank would pass an initiative petition.

The first was a Legislative constitutional amendment in 1962.  It failed with 277,611 yes, and 1,395,996 no, with 470,444 blank ballots.  That's 13% yes, 65% no, 22% didn't care.  Or

In 1968 they came back again, this time 543,772 voted yes, 1,290,303 voted no, and  513,930 left it blank.  23% to 55% to 19%.

In 1976 they went back to the well.  645,483 yes, 1,787,302 no, and 211,477 couldn't decide.  24% to 68% to only 8%.

In 1980 Prop 2/1 (ballot question 2) to limit property tax increases to 2.5% a year was passed 1,438,768 yes, to 988,839 no, with 129,060 blank.  56% to 40% to 5%.  This came in after the huge inflation in the 70s was causing property tax to go up something on the order of 17% or even more a year.

Come 1994, this time it's not a legislative amendment, it's an initiative petition for a constitutional amendment (The statists couldn't get the legislature to stick it on, so they collected signatures of the other statists).  It went down 630,694 yes to 1,442,404 no, with 159,108 blank.  Or 28% to 65% to 7%.

In 1998, among other things, an initiative petition to reduce the tax on interest and dividends from the then 12% to be the same as the tax rate on normal income passed 1,395,599 yes to 309,416 no with 230,262 blank.  Or 72% yes, 16% no, 12% didn't care.  Short term capital gains remained taxed at 12%.

In 2002 an initiative petition led by the libertarian candidate for governor to eliminate the income tax entirely went down 885,683 yes to 1,070,668 no with 263,950 blanks.  39.89% yes, 48.22% no, 11.89% blank.

The best measure of statism, at least in my opinion, is who is willing to vote for a tax INCREASE.  Not voting for a decrease is merely someone happy with the status quo, and not necessarily a statist sentiment.  Back in 1962 only a mere 13% of the voters were expressing a very statist sentiment.

By 1994 it had climbed to 28%.  Who are these 28%?  Some are bleeding heart modern liberals, to be sure.  I'm sure among them are the 1,433 who have elected to pay taxes at the 5.85% rate for the 2002 filing year.  Others have no real job, they rely on state handouts, and since they're not paying in, the more the rest of us pay in, the more the state can hand out to them.  Then there are those making so little the graduated income tax would not effect them, and they believe in sticking it to the rich guy, because surely they're not paying enough.  These people generally don't anticipate doing well enough to bump themselves into the next tax bracket.  They may also be relying on state assistance.  The safety hammock isn't as comfortable in New Hampshire, they're not effected by the Massachusetts income tax, and if they live near the New Hampshire border they can shop there without having to move there.  They have little incentive to move to New Hampshire.

The last main group, and the most powerful segment of the gimmie lobby are the state workers, unions, and their families.  The represent a huge block of voters on the state and local level.  Politicians fear them, because if you do something against the police department, not only will every member of the police department and their extended families block vote against that politician, but all the fellow unions will join in for support, and their extended families, and the state workers and their families will most likely help out too.  In some towns in Massachusetts this can be nearly 50% if not over of the vote right there.

The good thing about this horrible situation for Massachusetts is that these people aren't tremendously mobile.  To keep their power to maintain and improve their retirement packages they have to be Massachusetts voters.  Which means they can't move to New Hampshire and expect to wield the same influence.
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schletty

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2003, 10:49:19 pm »

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The good thing about this horrible situation for Massachusetts is that these people aren't tremendously mobile.  To keep their power to maintain and improve their retirement packages they have to be Massachusetts voters.  Which means they can't move to New Hampshire and expect to wield the same influence.

You raise a good point: why would a group that would be most likely to try to wield political influence be likely to leave a place where they have already established their own little socialist paradise?

In light of my previous point, though, couldn't we conceivably find tax-haters immgrating (and at an apparently decent rate) to NH who have no problem with other statist policies?
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JonM

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2003, 11:07:41 pm »

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The good thing about this horrible situation for Massachusetts is that these people aren't tremendously mobile.  To keep their power to maintain and improve their retirement packages they have to be Massachusetts voters.  Which means they can't move to New Hampshire and expect to wield the same influence.

You raise a good point: why would a group that would be most likely to try to wield political influence be likely to leave a place where they have already established their own little socialist paradise?

In light of my previous point, though, couldn't we conceivably find tax-haters immgrating (and at an apparently decent rate) to NH who have no problem with other statist policies?

It's possible, as a NH resident mentioned in another thread.  But having no problem with and willing to defend are a bit far apart.  Eventually statist type things, such as full time police, trash collection, etc. that he brought up will be decided on a town by town basis.
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schletty

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2003, 11:18:36 pm »

Who knows? They might be eager to defend their niche statism once they realize what a bunch of whackos we are  ;)

BTW, I meant to mention before: nice research.  :)
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Mickey

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2003, 11:39:59 pm »

In light of my previous point, though, couldn't we conceivably find tax-haters immgrating (and at an apparently decent rate) to NH who have no problem with other statist policies?

Hating taxes is an excelent first step toward libertarianism. If we can't convince some one who hates taxes that reducing the size of the government is good, we must be sorry activists!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2003, 11:43:28 pm by Mickey »
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schletty

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2003, 12:01:36 am »

This alludes to my earlier point about statist hypocrisy. While I will try to make my appeal to anyone who hates taxes (which, I agree, is a good start), I also realize that such a one may not hate taxes as much as he hates his taxes (i.e. He hates that he can't have as much stuff, but he isn't philosophically opposed to what they represent).

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If we can't convince some one who hates taxes that reducing the size of the government is good, we must be sorry activists!

Only time will tell  ;)
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JonM

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2003, 12:28:57 am »

This alludes to my earlier point about statist hypocrisy. While I will try to make my appeal to anyone who hates taxes (which, I agree, is a good start), I also realize that such a one may not hate taxes as much as he hates his taxes (i.e. He hates that he can't have as much stuff, but he isn't philosophically opposed to what they represent).

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If we can't convince some one who hates taxes that reducing the size of the government is good, we must be sorry activists!

Only time will tell  ;)

What they represent is society's compassion.  Those people need to be reminded society's compassion does not have to be provided by the government.
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schletty

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2003, 12:40:24 am »

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What they represent is society's compassion.  Those people need to be reminded society's compassion does not have to be provided by the government.

Either compassion or guilt. If the former, you are right in stating that the FS can demonstrate that true compassion must have freedom as its basis (would that we will). This point touches on other threads, I'm sure, but we need to beware the FSP-as-the-big-party mentality.

If the latter, let us (gently) expose it as such.
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Dave Mincin

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2003, 03:06:14 pm »

Perhaps a good time for a story about one of those invaders from MA that I met while in NH. :)

Tony, Doug, and I were in front of the little coffee shop at the camp grounds wondering how we were going to deal with the growling in our bellies, since the shop was closed.

Tim came by and invited us to head into Lancaster for lunch.  Chinese-American Restaurent, go figure. ::)

Anyway we were seated in the smoking section :), in the front of the restaurent, rather isolated from the rest.  Anyway Al heard our conversation about freedom and NH, and he came to the area were we were setting.  He showed us some information that he had on the group he was leading that was fighting to reduce the school taxes.  

Within minutes Al had brought his meal back to our area and joined us.  A little background on Al, he had been a Bird Cornell in the Air Force, a pilot for TWA, and a high school teacher.  He proceed to tell us that back in the 80's he and his wife had been researching the various states to decide were they would move.  Freedom was one of there main concerns. (sound framiliar?)  Anyway they chose NH.  Al spend the rest of the time telling us how great NH was and how welcome we would be.  As we were
leaving I invited Al to stop by the campsite, but he declined, because he had a political meeting to attend.

Couple days later, early evening as we were setting around the campsite, along came Al :)  We all listened intently as Al told us of all the virtues of NH, wish I could remember them all, but I can tell you we were all listening!
One thing I did remember Al saying was that NH has no state agency to enforce federal mandates, hmm like the sound of that! :)

Granted Al was just one person, but I can't help but think many of those people that so many seem to fear are just like Al. ;D
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Stumpy

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Re:Is NH being invaded by statists?
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2003, 03:21:08 pm »

Al spend the rest of the time telling us how great NH was and how welcome we would be.  

Yes Dave, it was great meeting and speaking with Al.

He is one of about 30 that I spoke to in New Hampshire. I described the FSP and asked how they would feel if 20,000 libertarian activists moving to their state to get involved in politics.

All said that the FSP would be welcome in NH.  ;D
« Last Edit: July 21, 2003, 03:22:56 pm by Doug(stumpy) »
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