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Author Topic: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?  (Read 35975 times)

dalebert

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Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« on: February 09, 2011, 01:23:28 pm »

I just had another tiresome and long conversation with Keith where he says that bigotry doesn't matter, the FSP is just a bus.  What's the big deal if people in fairly public FSP positions express bigoted positions regarding government policy, etc.  I argued that we don't want to encourage bigots to hop on the bus, and in fact that the FSP at least has expressed significant rhetoric that bigotry is to actually be discouraged.

So I guess my question to the readers of the forum but especially people in public positions in the FSP is, does bigotry matter?  Should the comment in the FAQ about bigotry be removed?

Andvari

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2011, 01:53:17 pm »

Bigot---Hmm dont know if it should be taken out or not but that word has gotten so watered down i hardly pay attention whenever its used. Whats intereting is the 'group' that i see most belittled and mocked in libertarian circles are Christians, and its usually the same ppl that tend to throw that word (bigot) around. Ive noticed this for awhile on  ron paul forums as well.
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rossby

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2011, 02:21:26 pm »

"Bigotry" is the prejudice expressed by a person who is intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions (perhaps even suggesting that no other opinions exist).

What's the big deal if people in fairly public FSP positions express bigoted positions regarding government policy, etc.

Is someone doing this?

Moving on then...
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MengerFan

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2011, 02:50:37 pm »

I am bigoted against people who reject logic and the scientific method. Should I be kicked out of NH?
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dalebert

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 04:32:18 pm »

"Bigotry" is the prejudice expressed by a person who is intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions (perhaps even suggesting that no other opinions exist).

In fact, this seems to me to be a core defining principle of libertarianism.  We tend to be fairly tolerant of differing opinions as long as people don't try to impose their views on others through force, particularly by entrenching their views into government policy so as to impose them on others violently.

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Is someone doing this?

Moving on then...

It's my opinion that they are, yes.  Clearly you disagree and are being pretty dismissive about my opinion (again), basically implying that my opinion is not even worth a discussion.  All I'm really trying to do is get Keith, a moderator on this forum and active with the FSP in a fairly public fashion, to have a public dialogue about where he stands on government policies of discrimination and see if that dialogue can expose his true motives so people can form their own opinions based upon that open dialogue.  And if he would just answer some really straight-forward questions, maybe the discussion would already be over.

Because my opinion is that the policy is there for good reason and that we shouldn't be dismissive about it.  He's already expressed that he would support having the Loving decision rolled back because it was an expansion of government (and raised his taxes) but then changed what he said when asked to share that opinion publicly.

How would you feel if you were black, and this person in the FSP made a point at EVERY POSSIBLE OPPORTUNITY to remind you that they don't support the government acknowledging inter-racial marriages as valid and when you tried to get them to rationally defend their support for a policy of government discrimination, said "Why does this issue matter to you?  It's so trivial and unimportant.  Why do you dwell on this subject so much?  It's not a big deal if people are racist.  The FSP is just a bus anyway."?

So I'm allowed to have my opinions, but just keep them to myself and don't rock the boat.  Is that it?  We wouldn't want to scare away any bigots because we need to hit 20k.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 04:46:56 pm by dalebert »
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dalebert

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2011, 04:44:20 pm »

Oh, I left out one -- "See, this is why black people are so annoying!"

I sense that I'm annoying you too with my issues, aren't I B.D.?

rossby

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2011, 05:48:39 pm »

Oh, I left out one -- "See, this is why black people are so annoying!"

I sense that I'm annoying you too with my issues, aren't I B.D.?

I'm not annoyed. I just don't see where/what you're complaining about. You're turning a private conversation into a public one. Seems unkind to me.

Clearly you disagree and are being pretty dismissive about my opinion...

I am being dismissive. Lack of evidence. Show.

All I'm really trying to do is get Keith, a moderator on this forum and active with the FSP in a fairly public fashion, to have a public dialogue about where he stands on government policies of discrimination and see if that dialogue can expose his true motives

Sounds to me like you're not really interested in a public dialogue; sounds like you want a witch hunt. Are you angry at him? How about frustrated?

And if he would just answer some really straight-forward questions, maybe the discussion would already be over.

Looks like he responded to your very general question.
You have not responded to him.

Because my opinion is that the policy is there for good reason and that we shouldn't be dismissive about it.

One of the biggest reasons for the policy is because we get angry racist-types that show up and it makes the whole project look bad. For some reason--don't know why--the media makes this idiotic leap from "the FSP wants liberty activists in one state" to "Oh, well they must be racists." Obviously, that doesn't make a damned bit of sense. But when you have Stormfront-types showing up, it doesn't like good.

The point is that people in the Project should play well with others. Fortunately, most FSP types are quite tolerant and peaceful, so this isn't normally an issue. it's just when intolerant people show up and start making a mess of things.

He's already expressed that he would support having the Loving decision rolled back because it was an expansion of government (and raised his taxes)

And did he go on to say that interracial marriages should be illegal?

How would you feel if you were black, and this person in the FSP made a point at EVERY POSSIBLE OPPORTUNITY to remind you that they don't support the government acknowledging inter-racial marriages as valid and when you tried to get them to rationally defend their support for a policy of government discrimination, said "Why does this issue matter to you?  It's so trivial and unimportant.  Why do you dwell on this subject so much?  It's not a big deal if people are racist.  The FSP is just a bus anyway."?

I would not try to change his mind. I cannot do that. If he had a serious problem, first, I would listen. What is his problem?
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ONLYWAY

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2011, 06:03:25 pm »

all ridiculous answers for so called freedom folks!!!!!!!!!   Who is to determine what is bigotry?  BD Ross seems to think anyone who really believes they are right is a bigot...so we should all be "open-minded"...there is no right or wrong and you shouldn't ever be domatic...ridiculous!  I have read some very bigoted statements about people or faith on this site.  People who believe the Bible literally...even in this thread someone said they are bigoted against people who don't ues sicence method to solve their questions.

Why don't you people worry about free speach on not bigoted statements.  the def for bigotry is simple...if someone comments on anthers ACTIONS...no matter what the comment, it is not bigotry.  For example, if I called a child molester a pervert no one would object.  but if i called a homosexual a pervert people wold freak out...everyone is entitled to their own opinons...

The reason why you guys get stuck on such simple things is because you have no foundation...no basic sense of absolute right and wrong.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 06:05:53 pm by ONLYWAY »
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 06:28:10 pm »

I am bigoted towards fluff and other stuff
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MengerFan

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2011, 07:32:20 pm »

I am also mildly bigoted against folk who disrespect others with excessive misspellings, mispunctuation, and general disregard for proper English syntax.
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dalebert

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2011, 07:36:32 pm »

but if i called a homosexual a pervert people wold freak out...everyone is entitled to their own opinons...

Don't worry.  The FSP is probably already considering making you a mod and might even elect you to the board.

dalebert

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2011, 09:41:06 pm »

Sounds to me like you're not really interested in a public dialogue; sounds like you want a witch hunt. Are you angry at him? How about frustrated?

Yes.  I'm angry because he's a bigot and frustrated because he's relentlessly insulting and won't engage in a rational discussion about it.  He calls me a fag on a regular basis and constantly reminds me that he supports government discrimination that would impact me, often bringing up the subject himself out of the blue and then getting hypocritically annoyed if I actually try to talk about it.

And trying to get specific people in public positions to be open and transparent about where they stand with regards to subjects of relevance to their position(s) is hardly a witch hunt.  Is that what you call it when reporters ask politicians probing questions to get at the truth while the politician dodges any position of substance and gives safe ambiguous answers full of happy buzz words?

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Looks like he responded to your very general question.

Are you referring to calling an end to government discrimination "affirmative action" and saying he doesn't support AA?

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You have not responded to him.

Are you referring to his accusation that I support affirmative action?  I've never, to my knowledge, expressed support for anything remotely akin to AA.  I don't know how to explain how ending discrimination by the government is not AA other than to say to learn your definitions of words.  It seems to me that the comparison is erroneous and he needs to explain how he comes to such an absurd conclusion.  Otherwise, can you quote exactly what you're referring to where I've not responded to him because I'm sincerely baffled.  I wrote an entire article debunking his cover story for supporting government discrimination.

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One of the biggest reasons for the policy is because we get angry racist-types that show up and it makes the whole project look bad. For some reason--don't know why--the media makes this idiotic leap from "the FSP wants liberty activists in one state" to "Oh, well they must be racists." Obviously, that doesn't make a damned bit of sense. But when you have Stormfront-types showing up, it doesn't like good.

The word "racism" is there in the same sentence in the FAQ about what's unwelcome in the FSP.  That covers the Stormfront crowd.  Is that the only form of bigotry that the FSP cares about, and if so, why add "bigotry"?  Why aren't you worried about Fred Phelps types?  We do get those around here too, in case you haven't noticed.  Oh, but when that subject comes up, FSP spokespeople start throwing around "big tent" and other buzz words.

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The point is that people in the Project should play well with others. Fortunately, most FSP types are quite tolerant and peaceful, so this isn't normally an issue. it's just when intolerant people show up and start making a mess of things.

That sounds like empty rhetoric to me.  Actions vs. words.  I will admit that I don't play well with others when they're bigots.  Normally I just avoid them.  That's what I'll start doing with Keith, I s'pose.

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He's already expressed that he would support having the Loving decision rolled back because it was an expansion of government (and raised his taxes)

And did he go on to say that interracial marriages should be illegal?

Yes.  He wants all marriages to be illegal (an end to "government marriage") and he has expressed that discrimination by the government with regards to which marriages it recognizes as valid is an acceptable form of incremental progress toward that goal.  I quoted him and he hasn't denied that the quote came from him, even though he changed his answer because he didn't think the general public would get it and therefore would be upset by his answer.  Keith...  Ya think so?

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How would you feel if you were black, and this person in the FSP made a point at EVERY POSSIBLE OPPORTUNITY to remind you that they don't support the government acknowledging inter-racial marriages as valid and when you tried to get them to rationally defend their support for a policy of government discrimination, said "Why does this issue matter to you?  It's so trivial and unimportant.  Why do you dwell on this subject so much?  It's not a big deal if people are racist.  The FSP is just a bus anyway."?

I would not try to change his mind. I cannot do that. If he had a serious problem, first, I would listen. What is his problem?

I've stopped trying to change his mind too.  I have listened.  Oh... have I listened, far longer than I should have.  I have theories about what his problem is, but I won't say it here because I don't feel it adds to the conversation.  But I presume you mean a problem with regard to his involvement in the FSP.  I would say his problem is not sharing certain goals of the FSP and having stated as much such as "bigotry is not a big deal", but if you can't change his mind, maybe teach him to keep his bigotry to himself, especially around the people he has decided to arbitrarily take issue with.

See, my friends may call me "fag" occasionally and I laugh with them, because it's so obviously in jest.  My friends are mostly liberty-lovers who want me treated as an equal.  Keith is not my friend.  I suggest you convince him that he's a face of the FSP in my presence and many others and he should conduct himself accordingly, i.e. in a professional manner.

Dreepa

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 07:25:48 am »

Dalebert has some good points.
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freedomroad

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 10:14:56 am »

Um, sorry everyone, I guess I was caught off guard by all of this.  I thought this thread was created because my good friend wanted to have a public debate on an issue.  It looks like this is just drama dealing with the ending of a multi-year friendship.  I deleted all of my posts because I feel this is a wholly inappropriate way and place for such things.
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rossby

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Re: Does the FSP Care about Bigotry?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2011, 03:14:00 pm »

BD Ross seems to think anyone who really believes they are right is a bigot...so we should all be "open-minded"...there is no right or wrong and you shouldn't ever be domatic...ridiculous!

Not at all. I gave a definition above.

but if i called a homosexual a pervert people wold freak out...everyone is entitled to their own opinons...

You are entitled to your opinions. The guidelines don't say you can't have opinions. Certain areas, it says not to promote them.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 03:15:58 pm by B.D. Ross »
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