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Poll

Does Publicly-Stated Support for Gubment Gender-based Discrimination Fall Under "Bigotry" per FSP?

Yes
- 6 (66.7%)
No (And please expound on your reasoning)
- 3 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 8


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Author Topic: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?  (Read 13840 times)

dalebert

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Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« on: February 03, 2011, 02:51:44 pm »

http://freestateproject.org/about/faq.php

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Q: What kind of people are not welcome as members of the Free State Project?

A: Anyone who promotes violence, racial hatred, or bigotry is not welcome.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 03:00:50 pm by dalebert »
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K. Darien Freeheart

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2011, 04:20:56 pm »

I would think "No", it does not.

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

Frankly, using the actual definition of the word, anybody who supports the state out of fear that "some bad people will emerge" and that "other people" wouldn't be able to handle it fall into the definition of bigot. I've never heard a minarchist or other statist advocate for a "just enough government to prevent me from...", it's always "them" or "they" or some other group that can't handle themselves, but the person making the arguement for the state generally assumes they could.

The FSP is a big tent.
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dalebert

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2011, 04:35:16 pm »

So being sexist would not be bigoted?

Bazil

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2011, 05:21:03 pm »

Gender discrimination is widely accepted around the world and most people don't even realize it.  Segregated bathrooms is the most blatant example.  This doesn't mean everyone is bigoted though.
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dalebert

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2011, 05:31:03 pm »

Gender discrimination is widely accepted around the world and most people don't even realize it.  Segregated bathrooms is the most blatant example.  This doesn't mean everyone is bigoted though.

So you contend that if lots of governments do it, it's not bigotry?

What do governments do to someone who walks into the wrong bathroom?  Cause I just thought that was more of a custom and a courtesy.  I see people bring their very young kids into the "wrong" bathroom all the time so they can supervise them.  What's the penalty?  What do you think should be the penalty?

People with ambiguous genitalia by birth (about 1 in 1000), which bathroom should they go into?  Who should decide that?  What if I own a restaurant and I just have one bathroom with really private stalls?  Should I be allowed by the government to do it that way?  Should I be penalized by a government that backs it up with threats of violence?  What about genetically male (XY) people who have the defect that their Y gene doesn't activate and they grow up appearing to be female other than having a shallow vagina and no body hair at all?

My point is simply that separate bathrooms is quite a reach for supporting the notion that gender discrimination is perfectly acceptable and therefore not bigotry.

K. Darien Freeheart

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2011, 05:54:14 pm »

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What do governments do to someone who walks into the wrong bathroom?  Cause I just thought that was more of a custom and a courtesy.  I see people bring their very young kids into the "wrong" bathroom all the time so they can supervise them.  What's the penalty?  What do you think should be the penalty?

I'm gonna take this one up because that actually bother the HELL out of me, that bathroom thing. I've never understood it.

Bazil said NOTHING about government in that. The subject was bigotry and (by extension) discrimination. He didn't say that because the government does it, it's okay. He says gender descrimination is commonplace and many people don't even see it as such.

That doesn't apply to governments alone. It would still be sexist discrimination to bar someone from a publicly accessible place on the basis of their gender. If a business throws a gay man out because he's gay, it's still bigotry.

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My point is simply that separate bathrooms is quite a reach for supporting the notion that gender discrimination is perfectly acceptable and therefore not bigotry.

I dunno, I consider segregated bathrooms to be offensive.
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dalebert

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2011, 06:52:35 pm »

I guess what I'm saying is that IF you support gender discrimination by the government, that's a pretty good indicator of bigotry.  Supporting separate bathrooms is a much weaker premise.  But I think I did read too much into his statement.

rossby

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2011, 08:32:17 pm »

What do governments do to someone who walks into the wrong bathroom?  Cause I just thought that was more of a custom and a courtesy.

--you mean people can voluntarily follow customs and extend courtesy to others? Don't let the gub'mint know.
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dalebert

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2011, 11:05:50 pm »

So for example, if you support gay government marriage or even oppose it, would you be showing gender-discrimination?  That is debatable.

What's debatable about it?  It's discrimination on the basis of gender by the government.

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Either way, would you be banned from the FSP based on the FSP guidelines?  No.

I doubt anyone's going to get banned over it, but I think figuring out what bigotry means in that context is worth talking about.  Should it include sexism?  And if so, what if it's someone with a more public involvement with the FSP than just a signer?  Should the FSP be concerned about the public perception of it's more public participants?  If such a person expressed support for government discrimination on the basis of race, would that be call for concern?

MengerFan

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2011, 11:17:39 pm »

So for example, if you support gay government marriage or even oppose it, would you be showing gender-discrimination?  That is debatable.

What's debatable about it?  It's discrimination on the basis of gender by the government.


It's not gender discrimination if you apply your rules to both male and female homosexuals.
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rossby

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2011, 11:20:57 pm »

So for example, if you support gay government marriage or even oppose it, would you be showing gender-discrimination?  That is debatable.

What's debatable about it?  It's discrimination on the basis of gender by the government.


It's not gender discrimination if you apply your rules to both male and female homosexuals.

It's not color discrimination if you apply your rules to both whites and blacks?
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dalebert

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2011, 11:52:32 pm »

It's not gender discrimination if you apply your rules to both male and female homosexuals.

LOL!

Alex Libman

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2011, 02:20:10 am »

I have personally observed a considerable amount of discrimination within the FSP community against sexual minorities like: self-hating homosexuals, self-hating bisexuals, people who want to have sex with underage holographic unicorns, asexuals, robotsexuals, etc.
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andysurtees

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2011, 04:07:31 am »

Government discrimination makes no sense, as the governments themselves aren't involved. I don't personally acknowledge the right of any government to approve or disapprove of any relationship, or to approve or deny approval to any marriage. To that extent, I don't think government gay marriage should exist, but only because I don't think any sort of goverrnment marriage should exist.
Personally, I'm a sexist in the sense that, if you're interested in having sex with me, you're going to have to be female. That's entirely my choice, and in the unlikely event that I change my mind I'd like my new choice to be as accepted as my previous choice.
As for self-hating people - they normally have a wider societal reason. Self-hate isn't a good thing and I'd never encourage it, but almost everyone that does that has already been rejected by "normal" society. I'd like to think that in the FSP we'd accept everyone who hasn't been an agressor. Some of those people may not be generally regarded as respectable, but surely we apply our own standards there.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 04:12:04 am by andysurtees »
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dalebert

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Re: Is Gender-Discrimination "Bigotry" per FSP Guidelines?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2011, 12:51:34 pm »

So you agree that those which support government gay marriage are supporters of gender discrimination or are you talking about those that are opposed to government gay marriage?

Marriages ought to just be contracts between individuals proclaiming them to be related and treated as family.  The discrimination aspect is whether governments acknowledge those contracts and respect them for all the business they do which relates to family members.  I'm for ending all that business they do, including any benefits they give based on familial status, which would make them irrelevant and "get government out of marriage".  In the meantime, they should respect the contracts individuals choose to make with each other and not discriminate on the basis of gender.  Respecting the contracts people form, and not excluding some on the basis of gender, is the obviously libertarian position.  Supporting government discrimination is bigotry.  Duh.

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Also, if three females want to get a government marriage, if you support that, is it gender discrimination?

I do support them being able to contract to be treated as family members and that the government should acknowledge those contracts, but no, that's not gender discrimination unless the government respects some genders to form larger families but not others, e.g. 3 men, or 2 men and one woman, or 2 women and one man, but not 3 women.  Then it would be gender discrimination.  Otherwise it's just not recognizing those contracts with more than two people and applying that consistently across the board.  It's still violently disrespectful of choices and liberty, but it's not gender discrimination.

Keith, have you thought about looking up "discrimination" in the dictionary?

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If you support a 14 year old girl getting a government marriage with a 44 year old male, is that gender discrimination?

No, that's age discrimination.  However, one can make a sound argument about whether it can be consensual or not based on whether a really young person has developed the ability to properly consent.  The argument would be that it's justified age discrimination by the government.  I'm not arguing either way, just pointing out the nature of the argument.

Now if you want to support government discrimination and make an argument for why it's justified in any particular case, I look forward to hearing it, but so far your argument is pretending you don't know the definition of the word.

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What if a person followed Ron Paul's example and submitted a bill to increase gender discrimination but then voted against it?

That would be hypocrisy.  I encourage you to look that one up in the dictionary also.

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Any bill which throws people in a small cage if they discriminate based on gender is evil.

I agree completely, but that's very different from the government ITSELF engaging in discrimination that is completely without any rational justification.  Again, still open to hearing you justify discrimination BY the government with regard to which consensual contracts between adults it recognizes as valid or not, but you haven't done that yet.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 05:44:44 pm by dalebert »
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