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Author Topic: Where is John Galt?  (Read 5565 times)

ZionCurtain

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Re:Wyoming: the true West in ATLAS SHRUGGED
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2003, 10:12:39 am »

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Oil
Railroads
Mining
Ranching
Timber

Yup, these five industires are perhaps among the more heavily-subsidized by the fed (certainly ranching/agriculture, mining, and timber); and a good dose of protectionism (look at the current "timber war" with Canada. Though I don't know how much logging goes on in NH). If WY said "no" to federal dollars, their economy would tank, and the FSP would get all the (deserved) blame.

And frankly, I don't see why "self-sufficiency" is good on a state-wide level (maybe good for individuals, though. But even that's for more emotional rather than economic reasons). There won't be an  "Armageddon" w/ the federal gov't. Self-sufficiency is not necessary for political reasons. The free state won't be embargoed by neighboring states.
Yep that is why they have a 1.8 billion rainy day fund.
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Zxcv

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Re:Wyoming: the true West in ATLAS SHRUGGED
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2003, 10:24:14 am »

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The spreadsheet shows Wyoming as 4th least dependent on the federal government
 
Yes, and NH 1st. WY receives $1.14 for every $1 paid in federal taxes. NH gets only $.071. WY gets something like $14 million in farm subsidies. NH a little over $1 million. Wyoming has many benefits, but independence from federal government doesn't seem to be one of them.

Yes, but I was correcting pond's slander on Wyoming being "one of the least self-sufficient". It's hardly that.

I agree, NH is first in this measure, and this should be weighed in the consideration like any other factor. Somehow I think NH benefited, though, from the protection Wyoming gave it with that federally-funded SAC base during the cold war. And Wyoming has more miles of federally-funded Interstate highway; shame on it for being a physically-larger state (over 10 times larger than NH).
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pond

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Re:Wyoming: the true West in ATLAS SHRUGGED
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2003, 10:30:30 am »

Yep that is why they have a 1.8 billion rainy day fund.
And I'm sure we'll be a well loved bunch when we burn through it in 8 years or so. Not that Wyoming ever seemed the most receptive state to the project anyway.
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Karl

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Re:Wyoming: the true West in ATLAS SHRUGGED
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2003, 10:36:20 am »

I agree, NH is first in this measure, and this should be weighed in the consideration like any other factor. Somehow I think NH benefited, though, from the protection Wyoming gave it with that federally-funded SAC base during the cold war. And Wyoming has more miles of federally-funded Interstate highway; shame on it for being a physically-larger state (over 10 times larger than NH).

Sorry, Wyoming doesn't get special favors because it larger.  If it can't pay for its own highways, how can we expect it to ever break free of Federal taxes?  This is massive state welfare, pure and simple.

Give us a break with the SAC base.  This sounds like some faux patriotic neocon wrapping himself in the flag (puke!).  Support for that base represents a tiny fraction of the pork going to that state.

BTW, the Cold War is over.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2003, 10:39:29 am by Karl »
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Zxcv

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Re:Wyoming: the true West in ATLAS SHRUGGED
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2003, 11:24:57 am »

pond, you cannot burn through that fund. It is protected in the state constitution. Only interest from it is available for spending. And why would you want to burn through it, anyway? I thought libertarians were supposed to cut government spending, not increase it?

Karl, thanks for your reasoned, moderate response. I'm sure Cheyenne folks would enjoy hearing such a thing after being a primary missile target for so many years. And thanks for informing us that the Cold War is over.

As to the Interstate system, the fact is, it exists. Should it exist? No. But it does. Given that Wyoming does not have all that much influence in Congress, it can hardly be blamed for that. Maybe they should have lobbied Congress to move I-80 south into Colorado? Shame on them for not doing that.  ::)  Anyway, now that it's there in Wyoming, it has to be maintained, doesn't it? Let's be realistic.

We will see what we can do to get all the highways in whatever state we end up in, to be controlled and funded by the state, while reducing or eliminating federal gas taxes so we can take that function over. But until that happens, it seems pretty pointless to make hay over this issue.
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pond

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Re:Wyoming: the true West in ATLAS SHRUGGED
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2003, 11:34:42 am »

pond, you cannot burn through that fund. It is protected in the state constitution. Only interest from it is available for spending. And why would you want to burn through it, anyway? I thought libertarians were supposed to cut government spending, not increase it?
ZionCurtain seemed to be implying that the 1.8 billion was a hedge against the crippling blow we'll (we WILL) deal to the economy should we move there. That would suggest some sort of spending in the form of government bailout programs or subsidies.
And as for the libertarian view I'm continuously astonished by the lack of economic principles grasped by some of you fervent personal liberty philosophers. Government spending OR TAX BREAKS will cause deficits. If we go there I propose that our first move be to ammend the constitution to get us zero taxed until that money is GONE. The government has absolutely no business hoarding money away from its citizens and thanks for the update because I'm going to add this to my troubling constitutional issues thread.
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Karl

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Re:Wyoming: the true West in ATLAS SHRUGGED
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2003, 11:39:50 am »

Karl, thanks for your reasoned, moderate response. I'm sure Cheyenne folks would enjoy hearing such a thing after being a primary missile target for so many years. And thanks for informing us that the Cold War is over.

I was not criticizing the people of Cheyenne, or even suggesting the base wasn't justified at one time.  I was criticizing your comment about the SAC base, which had all the appearance of a neocon-style flag-waving, implicitly questioning my patriotism.  I've heard enough of that kind of crap in the last year.

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As to the Interstate system, the fact is, it exists. Should it exist? No. But it does. Given that Wyoming does not have all that much influence in Congress, it can hardly be blamed for that. Maybe they should have lobbied Congress to move I-80 south into Colorado? Shame on them for not doing that.  ::)  Anyway, now that it's there in Wyoming, it has to be maintained, doesn't it? Let's be realistic.

Whether or not Wyoming residents wanted those highways is irrelevant -- they have and will continue to be major points of leverage by the Federal government.

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We will see what we can do to get all the highways in whatever state we end up in, to be controlled and funded by the state, while reducing or eliminating federal gas taxes so we can take that function over. But until that happens, it seems pretty pointless to make hay over this issue.

It isn't pointless.  Its a factor in deciding the relative ease by which we may accomplish our agenda.  The more barriers in place, the harder it will be, and the less likely it will happen.  Federal dependance is a big barrier.
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Mickey

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Re:Wyoming: the true West in ATLAS SHRUGGED
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2003, 09:14:27 pm »

Gult's Gulch was is Colorado. And who cares. It was fiction. Furthermore, the strikers in Atlas Shrugged were engaging in quite a different undertaking than we are. They removed all the productive freedom lovers of the country to accelerate the enevitable colapse of the economy of the collectivist state.

They picked a mountain valley in the west because it was secluded from the rest of society.

We are not hidding. We are not running away. Our goal is not the colapse of the American economy.

The ficticous Atlanteans were a group of industrial geniuses. They were able to build a new economy from nothing. We are mearly political activists. Our goal is to work within an already productive economy in a freedom loving state to maximize that economy and love of liberty.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2003, 09:51:02 pm by Mickey »
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Ubi libertas ibi patria
Where there is Liberty, there is my homeland.
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