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[Penfist]

Most people I know don't mind living in stacks of boxes that go up and down. I point out, for your edification, the city of Atlanta, which is south of my home.

There, almost five million people live in little boxes, stacked up and down. The majority of them never think twice about it.

I would live in a stacked box, if it was the only way to have all the other freedoms I want.

[jenlee]

And before you know it there will be trees, plants etc growing on those barren mountains. If you had ever studied any type of history you would have know that glaciers once covered almost ALL of the US and Canada. Extending almost all the way down to Mexico. Then zack, they receded. And then zack nature took over and got all sorts of nifty neat little things growing. Then zack man moved in.

What state has featureless tundra?

North Dakota.  Glacier scraped the trees off.

Most of the West in fact, compared to what we're accustomed to.
I don't mind that, if it gains me Freedom, but if we're going to be a powerless Minority, only a somewhat bigger Minority than in the general U.S. population as we have been heretofore, then I'd just as soon stay here on the beach.
If you're 10% of the Voters, evenly spread out in the State, you will never ever ever repeal a single Law.  The way to get our way is to be a Majority concentrated where we can prevail totally, then attract more support and spread from that beachhead to take over the entire State.

  ... changing a law is our goal but we must respect them until then, unless we all want to be in a freaking prison.

Wrong.  It will be the same as here:  We continue to violate their crummy Laws and make sure we don't get caught.  That does not mean that we respect the crummy Laws.
And when we control every single public office in a Western County, including the Sheriff's Office, we will be able to have far more Freedom than we have dared dream - RIGHT AWAY!!!.  That fact will make news everywhere in the World and will attract hundreds of thousands of Liberty Lovers from all over the U.S.

[Zack Bass]

I see.............and of course you plan on doing what with any new people who might decide to join us in a few years? What with all that land NOT available where the hell will you put them?
Freeze em and stack them like cords of wood? Pack em in like sardines?  Oh yes sounds like a plan to me. NOT!!!

If Singapore and Hong Kong can do it, we can do it.  I'll rent them apartments in my Berlin Towers.

If we ever have the very unfortunate experience of having enough Porcupines to totally control New Hampshire, and there are more Freedom Lovers who want a more rural place to take over, we can point them to Vermont or Montana.  I will never view having too many Porcupines as a Problem.

Most likely, we'll end up with about half a million true liberty lovers, and the rest of the sheeple in the U.S. will prefer to remain Statist.  I think it's obvious that that is their clear preference.  Fine with me, just let me have one teeny State, that's all I ask.

[Karl]

Freeze em and stack them like cords of wood? Pack em in like sardines?  Oh yes sounds like a plan to me. NOT!!!

This is a non-issue.  New Hampshire will likely NEVER have 10 million people, and even if it did, at current growth rates, it would be GENERATIONS from now.

Wyoming would encounter severe water problems if only a couple million people lived there, to say nothing of 10 million.

[Zack Bass]

I would live in a stacked box, if it was the only way to have all the other freedoms I want.

That's right.
There's a tendency, when a get-away-from-the-bad-stuff movement starts up, to think of withdrawing into a remote desolate place.  That's because one way to be Free is to be away from everybody who might bother you.
That is not necessary for a libertarian movement.  Libertarianism is a way for huge numbers of people to get along in close quarters and still have Freedom.  We need autonomy, but we do not necessarily require a lot of room.

[jenlee]

A non-issue. So we do today and to hell with tomorrow?

Maybe Wyoming will have major water shortages maybe not. I know that if they would stop supporting Cal they would do better.

Also Alaska wont be facing any wter shortages, now nor in the foreseeable future.

Freeze em and stack them like cords of wood? Pack em in like sardines?  Oh yes sounds like a plan to me. NOT!!!

This is a non-issue.  New Hampshire will likely NEVER have 10 million people, and even if it did, at current growth rates, it would be GENERATIONS from now.

Wyoming would encounter severe water problems if only a couple million people lived there, to say nothing of 10 million.

[Zack Bass]

This is a non-issue.  New Hampshire will likely NEVER have 10 million people, and even if it did, at current growth rates, it would be GENERATIONS from now.

Under the premise to which I was responding, it would be an issue.  But it would still not be a problem.

Wyoming would encounter severe water problems if only a couple million people lived there, to say nothing of 10 million.

No more problem than Abu Dhabi.
We could simply pipe or truck or railroad in from Montana as much as we felt we could afford.  Or some other technological solution.
You don't really need much water, except for agriculture.  Certainly not for drinking.  Wyoming's got plenty to spare for 10 million drinkers.  By the time we have 10 million Porcupines in Wyoming, the industrial nature of the place will be entirely different.

Way folks in other Western States did it, they got the Feds to build them a free dam.  I would hope we wouldn't go that way.

[ZionCurtain]

Freeze em and stack them like cords of wood? Pack em in like sardines?  Oh yes sounds like a plan to me. NOT!!!

This is a non-issue.  New Hampshire will likely NEVER have 10 million people, and even if it did, at current growth rates, it would be GENERATIONS from now.

Wyoming would encounter severe water problems if only a couple million people lived there, to say nothing of 10 million.

More scare tactics I see.
How many people live in Arizona? Utah? Coth are dryer than Wyoming.

As for Zach Bass, he thinks there will be half a million freedom lovers in NH in a population of 10 million statists. Looks like his plan for NH is a good one.  

[ZuG]

I definately see the point of the people on these boards who are worried about the cheering on of NH at the expense of logical discourse.

Quote from: ZuG on Today at 01:36:27am

Since Wyoming is the fallback state

Can you explain this statement, please, Zug?

Actually, that is misinformation put out by NH fans.  Wyoming has the smallest districts while, overall, NH's are the ninth smallest.  It is really sad that NH supports did this.  I am sorry that you fell for it.

Misinformation? Our single seat districts are only ~3k people, as opposed to IIRC, ~8k for Wyoming, those are the only districts where you can compare the 2. In any district with more people, you don't have to come in first, meaning you can canvas to only a smaller group within the district.
Only looking at the single largest district in NH, and ignoring the fact that you can win by coming in 14th place the is not logical.
The only way that makes any sense due to the inherent differences in the systems is to look at min and max #'s of votes needed to win a state rep seat.

Show me a positive response from Benson in regard to suggestions from this commission like reducing gun-control, privatizing schools, de-criminalizing victimless crimes, etc., and then I'll be impressed.

Didn't read our press release, did ya, Zug?
Craig Benson told us school choice is one of the next to things which willl come off his desk. We have permitless open carry, no questions asked (did you hear what happened when two well armed porcupines during the Escape went into the same realtor which Drega shot up, and there was $5,000 on the table?), the easiest cc permits in the country and localities cannot make more restrictive gun laws than the state. Victimless crimes he said he would look at "one by one with an open mind". So, maybe we could only get 90% of our state agenda passed under Benson. Still, our Governor can out-lib your Governor. OR the Governor of ANY of the other states :p

Cheap, easily winnable elections, the FSP and Lib-friendliest Governor in the nation. The largest Lib caucus ever in only 18 months.

The New Hampshire Advantage.

jgmanyard: This entire section which you quoted and attributed to me was not mine, but a reply to mine, by FreedomRoad. Now if you have any issues with that, as you seem to, you'll have to take them up with him.

That said, I can answer the question about the fallback state. Wyoming was unofficially chosen as the FSP fallback state some time ago, in a thread discussion by Jason and others. If we don't reach 20,000, or don't reach them in the 5 year time-limit, then the backup plan (again, stated by Jason but not officially confirmed) is for us to go to Wyoming.

This is why freedomroad said we could move right away, and not have to wait for the 20,000. I don't find it to be a particularly compelling advantage, since it's in no way official.


You seem to automatically assume I'm talking about you when I said that there are people on these boards who are blindly cheering for a state without logic backing them. Now why is that? I never named names. Ovbiously, if you aren't doing that, as you say you aren't, then I'm not talking about you.


Also, I want someone to take me up on my offer to explain why you feel the way you do if you feel population is not important. As I outlined on page 3 of this thread, I don't think some of you have really considered the numbers when it comes to dealing with population.

As Zack said, I think that Jason's original idea was seriously flawed in that Quebec already had a large portion of the population backing succession. We don't have that, and thus we need a higher saturation than 1:62 (which NH has already slightly outgrown, btw). Somebody please explain to me how these factors are unimportant.

[JasonPSorens]

Any backup plan if we don't reach 20K has to remain just speculation.

Quebec did have some support for secession (about 5%) when the PQ started, but it rose significantly with PQ electoral successes.  But I don't think we should rely wholly on this one example.  Let's also take into account the fundraising capabilities of 20K, etc.

[RhythmStar]

One observation about population:

You can't politic with people you can't communicate with.

In a state like Wyoming, you will face vast areas of territory with  thinly-dispersed populations.  Most of these folks will spend the majority of their time on private property where you will not be welcome.  Their brief visits to town will be business-oriented and maybe a little jawboning with friends.  Since they won't know you, you won't be in that circle.   It may be hard for newcomers to press the flesh.

In contrast,  a state like New Hampshire has a more concentrated population.  People are used to politicking, as it is part of the culture (town meetings, lineitem local public budgetting, etc.).  People back East are a lot of things, but aloof and anti-social are not generally among them.  So, despite the need for a larger FSP contingent, the capacity for jobs and the ease of access to the electorate for FSP candidates may outweigh that consideration.

FWIW, I grew up in Texas.  You just don't move into town and make a big impression on the locals.  That takes years.  I know people who lived in New Braunfels for 10 years and still were looked at like they were from Mars.  They ended up moving to Austin, which from a Houstonian's perspective is one of the most cliqueish towns in Texas, to find a better sense of community.  LOL

I would not expect Wyoming to be much different, although like High Country Colorado, you probably get a few points after the 2nd or 3rd winter.  

Just a few thoughts.

RS

[Dave Mincin]

Joe,

Forgive the tardiness of my response to you.  Lots of post since we last interacted.  You make me think and for that I am grateful.  I will welcome that hand shake somewhere down the road, and am certain we will be able to work together, regardless to the outcome of the election.

I am a bit troubled by one of your comments"

"I do wish New Hampshire folks can make a lot stronger and even better backed up case than they have because I hope a Free New Hampshire would bring Maine and Vermont along."

I can see one and only one major strike against NH and that is population.  You mention the huge population of NH, yet I live in PA, somehow a million plus does not seem so much compared to that.

Should we vote for WY or VT simply because they have less people?

How can we present our case in a way that people will understand that NH is our last best hope?  What do you need to believe that NH is our best hope?  We are trying, not with hype but with the facts.  We are new to this so tell us what you need, and we will try our best to provide it.

I hear people talk of how we can create a free state, in places like WY and VT without 20,000, well maybe, but dam Joe, without 20,000 the FSP is caput!!!!!  We are all
released from our word of honor!  I truly shutter at the mear thought of that, and to be honest with you as much as I value freedom I'm not sure what I will do if that happens.

We must reach 20,000, we must honor our pledge, because as you say (forgive me if I do not get your words exact, but believe it is your meaning) loosing this fight for freedom is not an option!!!

Dave

[Zack Bass]

Quebec did have some support for secession (about 5%) when the PQ started, but it rose significantly with PQ electoral successes.

And it wasn't totally antithetical either.

But I don't think we should rely wholly on this one example.  Let's also take into account the fundraising capabilities of 20K, etc.

And let's also take into account the fact that the vast majority of Americans in all of the candidate States are unalterably opposed to repealing all Victimless Crime Laws.
Whereas there are hundreds of thousands of libertarians and other Lovers of Liberty who will be able to take over a State if only they concentrate together.

Spread out throughout the U.S., they will never ever ever repeal one single Victimless Crime Law.  Concentrated into one State, they can repeal them all.

At first, before we attract that many, we will have only 5,000 to 10,000 or so.  Spread out throughout the State, they will be a Majority nowhere, and they will never ever ever repeal one single Victimless Crime Law.  A couple of thousand, though, concentrated into one Western County, can achieve most of the Freedom we need, RIGHT AWAY!.  That is the only way we will attract the rest of the Porcupines we need to take over the State.  Libertarians are hesitant to go where someone says maybe we can gain a few concessions someday.  When they see that they can move to a place where they already own the Sheriff's Department and all other public offices, and no Victimless Crime Laws are being enforced at all (except by a few closely-watched and widely-reported Feds), they will come in droves!  Where else are they gonna go?
That beachhead will expand to a decisive victory in the entire State.

A mere 10,000, spread out and diluted, will be swallowed up, neutralized, outvoted at every turn, and never heard from again.  You listen to me now.  The LP has been failing with that strategy for 30 years.

[Zack Bass]

As for Zach Bass, he thinks there will be half a million freedom lovers in NH in a population of 10 million statists.

Sorry, I never said anything like that.  I do not believe that.  As I'm sure you are aware.

[Dave Mincin]

Joe,

Do understand your concerns, re population, but if I may let me relate something I learned while in NH.  John B, ran for governor in 2000, then again in 2002.  He doubled his vote count in 2002.  Sure name recognition and message may have had something to do with it, but I also learned that in 2002, he had 4, just 4 hard working dedicated people working there butts off for him.  Think they made the difference.  Two of those four were our own porcupines, Michele and Rich.

Do believe you underestimate the value of truly dedicated hard working political activitist.  Have come to believe those people are in NH and her supporters.  Is  this a heart call, most definately!  Any other state we start from scratch.  Not in NH, they are creating a base for us to move in and win support and gain power immediately, I'm to old to wait for years just to gain acceptance and credibility!

If another state can show me that, show me that the people will accept us, give us fair council then I will consider that state, but just don't see it.  All I get is statistics!  In my little world people are not statistics.  Until then I will casy my lot with the folks in NH!

Dave