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Author Topic: Must read!!!!  (Read 19100 times)

Penfist

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2003, 09:08:33 pm »


Which state should we choose, honey?
The pretty one dear.
The one with the flowers and green gardens and beautiful mountains.
The one with the the big city where we'll have nice restaurants.

Flowers and green gardens and beautiful mountains don't hurt the cause of freedom if everything else is already in place.

I couldn't live in a big city with nice restaurants.

I'll be excited when the vote is done and we all know where we're going to move.

I'm sorry you don't have time to rehash the finer points regarding Wyoming vs. New Hampshire, because I don't have time to pick over all the posts with a fine tooth comb looking for the pattern of misinformation that is allegedly present.

I have to go with what's already been filtered through the sieve that is my mind.

When I get to the Free State, I'll drink a toast to everyone who moves, even if they didn't vote for that state. Life is too short.
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jenlee

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2003, 09:49:48 pm »

Guess I'm lucky since there is only one person I don't want to shake hands with.

Aw well on to the free state and the freedom we all WANT.

I agree that things are getting a little nasty, but it can be boiled down to less than 5 mean-spirited WY supporters and less than 5 passive-aggressive NH supporters.

I also agree that after reading and reading day after day there are many FSPers I don't care to be friends with.  However, I'm okay with that.  I can work with people without liking them.

I'm eager to get the vote done, if for no other reason than we can finally put all this stupid he-said-she-said arguing behind us and start talking about things less divisive.
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Choices. One, plenty of room to expand. Two, freeze em and stack em like cords of wood, thaw em out to vote and then refreeze em. Choices.

StevenN

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2003, 12:09:49 am »

Quote
Rooting for the HOME TEAM in the face of overwhelming evidence that your state is not the best state for the success of the FSP is PREJUDICE.

Wow. How about posting some concrete evidence that NH is not the best state? Because there is none! (or for any of the 10, for that matter) You seem to be unable to make any distinction between fact and opinion. According to your opinion, and the way you weigh the data, NH is not the best state. I would never accuse even a North Dakotan or Maine-ite pushing their home state of what you accuse James. Why not entertain the possibility that people in a state may actually think their state is best? Why not hold other posters supporting their home state to the same standard? I actually value what natives say about their state.

It just doesn't seem friendly to not give your fellow porcupine the benefit of the doubt.

I wonder if you're not posting these accusations just to smear the pro-NH crowd while new people are coming to the boards. Especially with the title "Must Read!"

I wish I could look in a crystal ball and see the outcomes of NH being picked and WY/ID/MT being picked. WY/ID/MT picked - all these "prejudiced" NH'ers moving west and being happy (because James & co. have no opt-outs, or maybe one or two). Now, if NH was picked, it would be interesting to see how guys like Zion (who say that NH is a bad choice as a matter of fact, not opinion) react. Would they go? I have not seen assurances from that crowd like I have the NH supporters when their "zeal" is questioned.

I swear, the more crap like this I read, the more and more I think this project is going to flop, wherever.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2003, 12:16:47 am by StevenN »
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StevenN

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2003, 12:19:24 am »

Quote
The people supporting WY are people willing to move, while NH supporters are "as long as its NH"

What a flat-out "misrepresentation"!! >:( THe most vocal supporters of NH have, on many occasions, expressed how willing they are to move to the Free State - wherever it is. Actually, of the most "vocal" people on these boards, the NH supporters are the only ones I have noticed that have expressed that they will go anywhere for freedom.
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jenlee

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2003, 12:49:35 am »

~clears throat~

As the only Alaskan posting, I have already pretty much figured out approx how far I will have to travel to get to the free state, of course depanding on where it is.

And now...........

back to your regularly scheduled flame.

~tiptoes out of thread~

Quote
The people supporting WY are people willing to move, while NH supporters are "as long as its NH"

What a flat-out "misrepresentation"!! >:( THe most vocal supporters of NH have, on many occasions, expressed how willing they are to move to the Free State - wherever it is. Actually, of the most "vocal" people on these boards, the NH supporters are the only ones I have noticed that have expressed that they will go anywhere for freedom.
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Choices. One, plenty of room to expand. Two, freeze em and stack em like cords of wood, thaw em out to vote and then refreeze em. Choices.

varrin

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2003, 01:52:15 am »

ZionCurtain:

I'd like to make a suggestion.  You can take it or leave it.  Here it is:

Don't attack people.

It doesn't matter how right you (think you) are, attacking people is wrong.  It's wrong first because it is simply an unkind, unwanted gesture.  It's wrong second because it will undermine your objective.  It's no secret where you or I or Jim or most of the people on these forums thinks we should move.  Attacking them because they don't like your state will only make them dislike you *and* your state because of your lousy behavior.

Honestly, I'd prefer someplace other than Wyoming.  So the more people you drive away from WY, the better for me (and ID).  But if it really is the best candidate for the project (it's at least better than several others), it would be too bad for it to fail to win because of the bad attitudes of its supporters.

V-

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ZionCurtain

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2003, 12:21:53 pm »

ZionCurtain:

I'd like to make a suggestion.  You can take it or leave it.  Here it is:

Don't attack people.

It doesn't matter how right you (think you) are, attacking people is wrong.  It's wrong first because it is simply an unkind, unwanted gesture.  It's wrong second because it will undermine your objective.  It's no secret where you or I or Jim or most of the people on these forums thinks we should move.  Attacking them because they don't like your state will only make them dislike you *and* your state because of your lousy behavior.

Honestly, I'd prefer someplace other than Wyoming.  So the more people you drive away from WY, the better for me (and ID).  But if it really is the best candidate for the project (it's at least better than several others), it would be too bad for it to fail to win because of the bad attitudes of its supporters.

V-


When you are attacked it is a reflex to attack back.
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jenlee

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2003, 12:41:46 pm »

A suggeston to you Zion and to the others.

If you feel/know you are being attacted, ignore who ever is doing that. Trust me when I say that the people reading are in fact reading and IF (note I say IF) there is lies abounding ect then the people will pick that fact up too.

So ignore attacts, take the "high ground" post good reason on why we should go to which ever state you all think we should.

Me, with all this bickering, it sort of put me off of the states being named  ON BOTH SIDES. So I do like most do, I try real hard to IGNORE the fighting and try to read the facts so I can make my own mind up.

Also, just a suggestion but take this private and you all will look better.

ZionCurtain:

I'd like to make a suggestion.  You can take it or leave it.  Here it is:

Don't attack people.

It doesn't matter how right you (think you) are, attacking people is wrong.  It's wrong first because it is simply an unkind, unwanted gesture.  It's wrong second because it will undermine your objective.  It's no secret where you or I or Jim or most of the people on these forums thinks we should move.  Attacking them because they don't like your state will only make them dislike you *and* your state because of your lousy behavior.

Honestly, I'd prefer someplace other than Wyoming.  So the more people you drive away from WY, the better for me (and ID).  But if it really is the best candidate for the project (it's at least better than several others), it would be too bad for it to fail to win because of the bad attitudes of its supporters.

V-


When you are attacked it is a reflex to attack back.
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Choices. One, plenty of room to expand. Two, freeze em and stack em like cords of wood, thaw em out to vote and then refreeze em. Choices.

Dave Mincin

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2003, 02:05:02 pm »

Wow...were to begin!

I support NH as our last best hope for freedom in our life time, because I believe in my heart and soul that we can create a free state in NH.

A few say the 101 reasons are hype, or spin, I say fine you are entitled to your opinion, but when I see the personel attacks on Michele, calling her a lier, and the such, honestly my blood boils, so I count to 10 walk around the comuter then keep my mouth shut.  I've have had the privilege of meeting Michele and getting to know her, and truly she is a Lady of Liberty.  You folks have no idea the time and the effort she has put into the cause of libery, often at the expense of her family and job.  She will always have my vote for Miss Liberty, and my undying graditude for her effort!

As for the fine piece she wrote in support of NH, "101 reasons" I say let the porcupines decide!

Joe we have often bumped heads on these forum, but know this, I read what you say and respect you.  I know that you are a veteran of the political wars and bring much to the table, and I look forward to working with you when this election is over.  I believe there is much you can teach me, because fact is I am a rookie in the political wars that lay ahead of us.  As for a hand shake know that I will offer mine, the rest will be up to you.

Finally, come on folks lighten up.  This state debate, and election is for many of us porcupines our first real taste of politics!  If you want to play like our current political leaders and win by attacking, and being negative so be it.

As for me I will do my best to tell why NEW HAMPSHIRE is the best place for us to establish a  FREE STATE!

Dave


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Sardonicous

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2003, 01:58:05 pm »

Good Evening Ladies and Gentlemen:

I would like to thank Mr Zion for the quote.

I stand by what I wrote except for the errors in grammar and spelling.

However I must appologise to Mr Maynard. It seems I have opt out of Three states while he opt out of none. I am not immune to a little hypocracy but when dicovered I move to correct it.  If NH is picked in a valid vote I will stand by my oath.

There is a real darkness growing and destroying this great nation that I love. I will not stand down and watch it be destoyed.

I wrote what I wrote because I believe this vote is crucial, problaby one of the most crucial votes in modern history.

The choice of which state could be the deciding factor not just of the success or failure of the FSP...but of the success or failure of the United States of America.

After the state is chosen those of us who believe in freedom must SHAKE HANDS and then close ranks to fight the real enemy.
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Stumpy

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2003, 02:01:02 pm »

Yessiree!
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Ceol Mhor

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2003, 03:08:26 pm »

Debates get heated and people can get carried away, but that's by no means a death knell for the Project. In this case particularly the debate is so heated because to major choices are all very encouraging. It think that the West provides us the best oppotunity, but certainly not by any overwhelming distance. There is overwhelming evidense that Maryland would be a crappy FSP destination. The issues separating our eastern and western candidates are far, far smaller.

Remember how many thousands of people are FSP members and don't post on the board here, and don't underestimate them. We will only fail if we give up on each other.The Founding Fathers had a far more difficult task than we do, and they pulled it off. We can do even better.

Quote
There is a real darkness growing and destroying this great nation that I love. I will not stand down and watch it be destoyed.
Hear hear!
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pond

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2003, 06:18:00 pm »

Remember how many thousands of people are FSP members and don't post on the board here, and don't underestimate them. We will only fail if we give up on each other.
I can completely agree with that and am thankful for the fact that most FSP members likely avoid this board altogether. Maybe after the vote we can be forgiven a bit of revisionism and completely remove it.
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ZuG

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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2003, 12:36:27 am »

Let me jump in this debate. I see both sides of the story, let me try to elaborate them.

I definately see the point of the people on these boards who are worried about the cheering on of NH at the expense of logical discourse. Now, I have no doubt in my mind that every single NH supporter who has cheered NH has done so with no ill intentions. But, many of those same people who support NH have been starting a lot of threads and saying a lot of things, not all of which are logical.

Touting only the best points of a place and ignoring the worst points should not have a place on these boards. This is about determining what is best for the future of 20,000 people. That leaves no room for "cheering for your favorites" or some such. It worries me greatly that there are people here who would not listen to reason even if you shoved it down their throat. They are so convinced that their particular way is right that they will listen to nothing else.

Those of us who espouse logic over emotion for this decision are having a very difficult time keeping up with the sheer numbers of posts ignoring everything logical.

New Hampshire:
---------------------
New Hampshire has a lot of benefits. There is an established LP cheering us on, lots of support in the forums and by members, and a legislature that allows fusion candidates, a big plus in it's direction. I can certainly see why people cheer it, though I think "cheering" anything is against the spirit of the FSP.

I worry, though, when it comes to NH, about it's population, and more importantly, it's projected population growth. NH is one of the biggest states under consideration, population-wise. It currently has 1.275 million people. That is one FSP member for every 63.75 people.

That would be a difficult prospect, but doable if the FSP really united all it's members and made activism a daily part of our lives.

The thing that really gets me about NH is the 2000 census population projections. By 2015, NH will have 1.375 million. By 2025, it will be 1.44 million. That's around 40% growth, and a lot to deal with in a fledgling political movement.

(incidentally, for this reason, Idaho and to a lesser degree, Maine, would pose some real difficulty for the FSP)

Thanks to Joe's extensive data mining, we can more closely examine political trends. If you take a close look at the NH legislature, some disturbing trends come to light.

A quarter of NH's legislature is not from NH at all, but the much more statist Massachusetts. Another quarter of NH's legislature are current or retired lawyers or government employees. This is a disturbing trend, and it indicates that getting a foothold in the NH government may not be as easy as we would like to think.


Wyoming:
-------------

Wyoming has it's own considerable benefits. It's plentiful land space and small population make it an ideal consideration for the goals of the FSP. It's population is .5 million, and only expected to grow to .7 million through 2025, making each of our individual members much more effective than in the doubly sized NH.

It has some major downsides as well, however. Wyoming's projected job growth is the poorest of the ten states under consideration. 20,000 people moving in over a period of 5 years will certainly put a strain on the areas that get larger influxes of people.

Luckily, both Cheyenne and Laramie are less than an hour from Ft. Collins, Co, a booming city with a growing tech economy. Evanston City is about an hour away from Salt Lake City, Utah.

Allowing FSPers to work out of state while the economy adjusts to our influx will help cushion the blow, but will not help allievate it. In short, jobs are certainly a issue, although not nearly as large of an issue at it first seems.

Another issue is the social climate of the state. The governor of Wyoming said we would be welcome if we respected the laws of the state, but the welcome we have recieved from the LP and other officials there, is not nearly as warm as what NH has been putting forward.

Wyoming has bigger political districts than NH, making getting into legislature more difficult, and the lack of fusion candidates is certainly a bane in our direction.


Analysis:
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Most of the foreseeable problems with Wyoming are concerning in the short-term, but much less so as the time frame gets larger. Jobs will be tight when we first move in, and it will be difficult to get a foothold into politics there.

On the other hand, New Hampshire looks like a very good candidate right now. We should be able to get candidates elected within 5 years of our arrival, and with the help of the NHLP begin to make a difference right away. But, as time goes on and NH experiences rapid population growth, our meager numbers, which were already stretched thin as of our initial moving, will be stretched even more and I have large worries that we won't be able to keep up with the growth.

So, my view, and the view of many of my contemporaries is thus: Do you want the FSP to make the right choice for the short term, or the long term?

This is why we find it so dangerous that people are cheering NH without really taking a hard look at the data.
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Re:Must read!!!!
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2003, 01:38:52 am »


Another issue is the social climate of the state. The governor of Wyoming said we would be welcome if we respected the laws of the state, but the welcome we have recieved from the LP and other officials there, is not nearly as warm as what NH has been putting forward.


HAHAHAHAHA

If we respected the present Laws of the State, there would be no need for a Free State Project.  The whole point, as the Governor knows, is to change the Laws, otherwise you have moved your family to a featureless tundra for no advantage.

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