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Author Topic: Montana and Wyoming supporters  (Read 8393 times)

ZionCurtain

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2003, 11:08:46 am »

No doubt I will vote WY first. Just thought we could only come to some compromise. If easterners can only think of living in a big urban area with all it's perks, and not about being successful, then we aren't looking at the bigger picture as a group yet and our chances of success are already out the window.

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varrin

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2003, 12:06:02 pm »

If westerners can only think of living in a sparsely populated western state.......... ;-)

V-

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BobW

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2003, 12:09:31 pm »

Hi Zion Curtain,

An excellent post.

We must always focus on the bigger picture.

Some personal thoughts - and they might be out of place here but it's to assist those looking for the big city "perks".

The Cheyenne-Fort Collins-Denver corridor is a big urban area.  The I-25 sprawl is no Los Angeles, but nothing too much can be missing from this area.

It's really not a matter of big city living; it's a function of money.  With el dollars, what is not available between Cheyenne and Denver?  Plus, with catalog sales ( I live in the country and it's the same here.) no one is going to be deprived of material goods.

The wool socks I will be wearing whether in Cheyenne or Helena or Boise will be the same.  

I'd urge those not familiar with the area to take a familiarization trip.  With some proper planning, the big ticket item is gasoline. An austere trip/vacation will do wonders.

Now, I know the vote is prior to a trip at this stage.  Still, a lot is perception from old images.  I recently learned that Lincoln, Nebraska has a Victoria's Secret store.  Nearly unnecessary; as soon as the cowgirl tucks the hiphugger jeans into the boots, it's time to discuss politics.



BobW

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ZionCurtain

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2003, 03:00:26 pm »

If westerners can only think of living in a sparsely populated western state.......... ;-)

V-


Is population not the biggest factor? That is why they selected the least populated states to choose from. I guess if we wan't to hide from the obvious facts and fail like the Libertarian Party has already then by all means. But first we need to change the name from the Free State Project to the Free Neighborhood Project, because that is all it will amount to.
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Zack Bass

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2003, 04:11:26 pm »



If westerners can only think of living in a sparsely populated western state.......... ;-)


Is population not the biggest factor?


Yes, but population and population density are two different things.  Low density is useless if the area is huge resulting in large population anyhow.

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craft_6

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2003, 05:01:59 pm »

I recently learned that Lincoln, Nebraska has a Victoria's Secret store.  Nearly unnecessary; as soon as the cowgirl tucks the hiphugger jeans into the boots, it's time to discuss politics.

That would give a whole new meaning to my favorite Presidential candidate's campaign slogan, "lighting the fires of Liberty, one heart at a time...."

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StevenN

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2003, 08:28:38 pm »

Quote
Is population not the biggest factor? That is why they selected the least populated states to choose from.

Yes, and no. Narrowing it down to the lowest-populated states was necessary. But - I honestly think - in spite of various ratios I know will be thrown at me, I don't think there will be an appreciable difference in success in a state w/ 500,000 people and 1,200,000 people. What matters is how the people will react to us, among many other factors! The FSP votes will not be a real factor percentage-wise, even in WY. Personally, I think the culture in NH is libertarian-oriented enough that a few-thousand activists will be just as successful in NH or WY. Frankly, I think if the FSP had only a few thousand good activists with good organization, a game plan, and the "juice" ($$$) they'd be successful in WY or NH!

But I think those are the only two states in which the FSP has a real chance to be successful. For all the popularity of MT, I have yet to see a really convincing argument for it. If people want cities, they'd be more inclined to WY with Cheyenne, Ft. Collins, and Denver. If they want jobs, they'll go with Idaho. Not to mention that MT does really bad on the quantifiable stuff.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2003, 08:30:09 pm by StevenN »
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freedomroad

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2003, 10:04:29 pm »

If the "westerners" want to push Montana to the top, they have to convince the "easterners" to push it high.  In my opinion, if you're trying to convince the "easterners" to vote for a western state, Idaho would be a better bet, since it's more urbanized in some locations (and has what some would consider better climate).  Whether or not that's a good idea is another debate.

-shrug-  Vote for whatever you think is best.

- Chip


It should be noted that Cheyenne, Wyoming has a better climate than Boise, Idaho.  Not only is it better, but to most people from the Northeast it is MUCH better.  

Summer temps:
Boise is around  8 degrees hotter than Cheyenne.
Make no mistake, Boise is hot during th summer.

Winter temps:
Boise is around 3 degrees hotter than Cheyenne, overall.
However, when you break it down
Day time: Cheyenne is around 1 degree warmer or about the same
Night time: Boise is warmer (3-6 degrees)
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varrin

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2003, 10:18:42 pm »

Keith,

Quote
It should be noted that Cheyenne, Wyoming has a better climate than Boise, Idaho.  

And Cheyenne has better job prospects too.  In fact, Cheyenne is really a better city than Boise.  Cheyenne has better restaurants, better bars, the people are nicer, and people from the northeast will prefer Cheyenne's arts and entertainment to that found in Boise.  The standard of living in Cheyenne is really much higher than Boise.  In fact, God lives in Cheyenne, while only a few of the angels have domiciled themselves in Boise.  

V-

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freedomroad

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2003, 10:42:09 pm »

Keith,

Quote
It should be noted that Cheyenne, Wyoming has a better climate than Boise, Idaho.  

And Cheyenne has better job prospects too.  In fact, Cheyenne is really a better city than Boise.  Cheyenne has better restaurants, better bars, the people are nicer, and people from the northeast will prefer Cheyenne's arts and entertainment to that found in Boise.  The standard of living in Cheyenne is really much higher than Boise...  

V-



I do not know about all of that, Varrin  :)   BTW, if you regain your cool and you want me to unquote you, I'll gladly remove all of that.

Both of the cities are nice.  Let's compare them.

1. Climate, Cheyenne is better
2. More people to try to run your life, Boise
3. Better Airport, Boise
4. Closer to a large MSA, Cheyenne
5. State capitals, Both
6. More jobs, Boise
7. A lower cost of doing business, Cheyenne
8. Closer to Federal Distict, Cheyenne
9. Closer to pro-sports teams, Cheyenne
10. Less people from CA, Cheyenne
11. Less snow, Boise
12. Most likely to have a major shortage of water in the next 15 years, Boise
13. Largest outdoor rodeo in the world, Cheyenne
Better Interstate location, Cheyenne

Boise has 2 interstate which goes from either Portland (or Seattle) to Salt Lake City (or Billings)
Cheyenne has 2 Interstates: 1 goes from Salt Lake City to Lincoln (or Omaha or De Moines), the other 1 goes from Billings to Denver (or Colorado Springs or Albuquerque)

To sum it up, both cities have there good points and both cities have there bad points.

If you have never been to Cheyenne, take a tour of the wonderful city.  You will see why it is called "Magic City of the Plains."
http://members.aol.com/wyomingliberty/cheyenne.html

Varrin, Zxcv is heading to Cheyenne right now.  He will give us notes and info on Cheyenne.  From July 20th to July 27th I'll be in and around Cheyenne.  I'll make sure to take lots of note and info and share it with the FSP, just like Zxcv is going to do.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2003, 10:43:24 pm by FreedomRoad »
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varrin

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2003, 12:30:08 am »

Regain my cool????  Nah... It'll be fun for my great grandkids to read that (the *un*edited version) in the FSP posterity book a zillion years from now.

I'll look forward to what zxcv and you come up with for Cheyenne notes.  

BTW, I'll still argue with the assertion that the overall climate in Cheyenne is better than Boise.  You separate it from snow (it all goes together in my mind and snow=bad), but even so, the temps year around are 'better' in Boise.  Keep in mind, it was 108 here yesterday and that didn't bother me at all.. ;-)

V-

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freedomroad

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2003, 01:02:00 am »

BTW, I'll still argue with the assertion that the overall climate in Cheyenne is better than Boise.  You separate it from snow (it all goes together in my mind and snow=bad), but even so, the temps year around are 'better' in Boise.  Keep in mind, it was 108 here yesterday and that didn't bother me at all.. ;-)

V-

Well, if you like very hot summers, than yes, Boise is better.  However, most people from the East do not (in anyway, shape, or form) like very hot summers.  To us, Cheyenne is better.  BTW, there are places 30 miles from Cheyenne that are warmer than Cheyenne (in the summer and winter) and only get around 30 inches of snow per year.  Cheyenne gets around 50 and (if I remember correctly) Boise gets around 15 inches.  30 inches is not much and it has hardly bothersome to most people (this is very true of people from the Northeast).

So, yeah, as in your case, if someone hates snow and loves hot, hot, summers, Boise has great weather.  There are places like that in Wyoming (though they tend not to be quite as hot in the summer).  Parts of northcentral-northwest Wyoming get little snow and have hot summers.  These places tend not to be too windy either.  However, some of them have cold winters.  

You might want to look into Cody, Lovell, or Powell, if Wyoming is selected.  Maybe you could teach flying lessons at the Cody airport twice a month and they would allow you to fly for free from Cody to Billings during the winter months.  You never know.  These small towns (-10,000 people) tend to be very nice and flexible.  You should be able to work something out.  You might be able to work the same deal out in Evanston, WY with Salt Lake City.  Although, Evanston has a few more people (over 12,000 and growing).
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craft_6

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2003, 09:46:58 am »

A question for the Montana supporters:

The spreadsheets (both Jason's and Zxcv's) tend to rank Montana below WY, NH, AK, ID, and SD in how liberty-oriented the native culture is, yet Montana has the reputation as the most libertarian western state, and won the straw poll at the GWC.  Why and how are the spreadsheet analyses flawed?  

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craft_6

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Re:Montana and Wyoming supporters
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2003, 10:17:41 am »

Quote
yet Montana has the reputation as the most libertarian western state, and won the straw poll at the GWC.  Why and how are the spreadsheet analyses flawed? 

You apparently give more credence to "reputation" and a straw poll which quite likely relied on "reputation".

Please go back and read what some Montanans have written.

The western part of the state and its cities have been going liberal/socialist.

Have YOU examined the spreadsheet data to find out why?

Or you would just rather rely on hearsay?

Joe:  I'm not relying on hearsay or reputation, merely asking the question of those who might know better than I do why the reputation differs from the hard numbers and data.  

Personally, I tend to put more credence into hard evidence, which is why Montana is well down my list.

The disconnect between the data and the reputation indicates that either the data are flawed in some way, or those who accept the reputation are mistaken and need to look at the facts.

My question is a challenge to the MT supporters, not an endorsement of them.
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