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Author Topic: New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA  (Read 24275 times)

Stumpy

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2003, 02:17:09 pm »

Jenlee,

I completely understand your hesitation to trust this from just ONE person.

We got the same basic answer from about 30 folks, from all over NH.

Every time we described the FSP to NH locals, the locals made it clear that the FSP would be welcome. Moreover, many said they would welcome us to help fight for freedom.

New Hampshire = the Free State.  LIVE FREE OR DIE!
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ZionCurtain

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2003, 02:26:03 pm »

"That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire".
I guess we are taking that as a positive? Or is it meant like, NH is full of nutty people?
I am asking Maynard what he meant, in what context. As for nutty I was not referring to a good nutty.
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Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2003, 02:29:24 pm »


4. No personal or business income tax (New Hampshire taxes dividend and interest income, targeting "unearned" income).


Let me preface this by saying that I'll be the first to agree that the dividend and interest tax needs to go.

But to address your point:

1.) NH has no sales tax, unlike WY.

2.) NH has the lowest overall tax burden of any state in the country.  WY is 31st in the nation, at 7.61% of gross income.

3.) According to the NH state website: "Resident individuals, partnerships, limited liability companies, and fiduciaries with non-transferable shares earning interest and dividend taxable income of more than $2,400 annually ($4,800 for joint filers)"  Here's my question: how many people do you know that earned $2400 individually or $4800 jointly in interest or dividend income?  This tax will never affect the vast majority of FSP members.

The tax still needs to go, admittedly.  But NH is a lot closer to the ideal zero taxation that libertarians endorse than Wyoming.  


The lowest tax burden in the US - 4.54% of gross income.

Reason number seven why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
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Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2003, 02:52:25 pm »

5. Lowest property taxes (this affects individual property rights - New Hampshire has some of the highest property taxes in the country, and is the #1 most property-tax dependent state).

Several points to make on this one:

1.) Most of the property taxes are controlled at the local level.  Thus, there is a great deal of disparity between towns.  Some towns have high property tax, some towns have low property tax.  

2.) NH town government allows a citizen to present a petition with 15 signatures and put a line item on the budget (warrant) up for referendum on the ballot.  This gives town residents incredible control over fiscal policy.  Don't want that new school?  Vote not to fund it.  

3.) Even with the property tax, NH still has the lowest overall tax burden in the nation, far ahead of WY.  You can pick all you want at a few individual taxes where WY may have an edge, but the fact remains that NH residents pay less of their income in taxes than those of any other state in the nation.

4.) The only state property tax is dedicated to school funding.  It was until recently $6.00 per $1000, and has already been cut to $5.80 per $1000.  Furthermore, the governor has made it his mission to further reduce the tax to $3.00 per $1000 by 2008.  

5.) The property tax bill that NH residents receive is THE tax bill.  They don't get nickeled and dimed like residents of other states (sales taxes, income taxes, etc.).  They have to actually sit down and write out a big check twice a year.  It hurts.  It makes them angry.  And that's an opportunity for us.

Sorry, Robert, no dice with this one, either.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2003, 03:59:13 pm by Keith Murphy »
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Rich T.

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2003, 03:08:28 pm »

You New Hampshire guys aren't getting the message yet.  A very large number of FSPers want nothing to do with the LP !!!

Read some of the old threads about the LP.  This is one of the biggest negatives for NH.

Racer X

So don't work with the LP. No big deal. NH has a few Constitution Party and America First Party members you can hook up with.

Here in NH we have several constitutionalist Republicans. One of whom intro'd a bill to remove the Bar Associations monopoly on the courts. Another one to have NH not enforce the PATRIOT ACT. Another one intro'd a bill to give a tax credit to homeschoolers. Others have co-sponsored bills to remove the state from direct education funding. At least one member has attended local FSP meetings. At least two have spoken at local We The People meetings. One is even a current FSP member.

You're seeing the LPNH get the attention b/c several of our members are leading the charge and actually doing something to promote the FSP and NH. We are not like the national party, we broke out of the membership structure and have basically told them to catch up with us when they get their act together.
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jgmaynard

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2003, 03:13:56 pm »

"That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire".
I guess we are taking that as a positive? Or is it meant like, NH is full of nutty people?
I am asking Maynard what he meant, in what context. As for nutty I was not referring to a good nutty.

During the few minutes we spoke (It WAS, after all, when the budget-veto bill was heating up) he seemed extremely interested and sincere. He meant it as saying the goals of the FSP are consistent with nature of the NH voter.
Besides, remember - This is NH! The state where Libertarians are NOT considered nutty... Two of our ex-gubernatorial candidates are working at the state house - in the Governors office and as the Executive Legislative Officer. They wouldn't put in people they didn't have a great deal of respect for.

JM
« Last Edit: July 02, 2003, 03:14:50 pm by jgmaynard »
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Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2003, 03:21:18 pm »


6. Best for lack of planning and zoning (those quaint little New England towns aren't likely to stand for anyone "trashing" them).

1.) There is no statewide requirement for planning in New Hampshire, just enabling legislation allowing towns to do it, very similar to WY's:

15?1?503.  Master plan; adoption; concurrent action; contents; amendment.

(a)  The commission, after holding public hearings, shall adopt and certify to the governing body a master plan for the physical development of the municipality. If the plan involves territory outside the city or town, action shall be taken with the concurrence of the board of county commissioners or county planning commission, or other municipal legislative body concerned.  The master plan, with the accompanying maps, plats, charts and descriptive and explanatory matter shall show the:

(i)  Commission's recommendations for the development and may include the general location, character and extent of streets, bridges, viaducts, parks, waterways and waterfront developments, playgrounds, airports and other public ways, grounds, places and spaces;

(ii)  General location of public buildings and other public property;

(iii)  General location and extent of public utilities and terminals, whether publicly or privately owned, for water, light, power, heat, sanitation, transportation, communication and other purposes;

(iv)  Acceptance, widening, removal, extension, relocation, narrowing, vacation, abandonment, or change of use of any public ways, grounds, places, spaces, buildings, properties, utilities or terminals;

(v)  Zoning plan for the regulation of the height, area, bulk, location and use of private and public structures and premises, and of population density;

2.) Many towns in NH do not plan, just as much of WY does not.  Of course, the unplanned portions of NH are verdant and green, while...  I'm trying to stay positive, here.

3.) Yes, the NH towns are charming and beautiful.  Even the ones without planning.  
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Leonard

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2003, 03:26:26 pm »

Regarding using votes to determine libertarian leanings for states: I don't think NH can be easily compared to other states.  The reason?  NH has fusion.  

In NH it is quite possible to vote for a Republican-Libertarian, or even a Democrat-Republican-Libertarian.  I'll bet that the National LP would count that as a "libertarian" vote.  Compare how the same candidate would do in WY: he or she would run as a Republican.  Only the more radically libertarian voters would still vote for a LP candidate (if one entered at all).  So the LP in the same sort of circumstance would get a much smaller share of the vote, or zero (if no LP candidate entered).  Many fewer votes - even though the electorate and the candidate were no different.

What are good voting measures of libertarianness?  Well, statewide three-way races, and statewide two-way races where one candidate is R and the other LP.  Those should be good tests that would fairly compare WY and NH (and other states).  The only one of these that I know of, is the Browne vote comparison mentioned previously in this thread.  Which rates WY as marginally more libertarian than NH, though really the difference is too small to be very significant.  Let's hear about some other three-way races in each place!

Now, if I stopped here I am sure Keith would point out that having fusion is a huge advantage.  He'd be right, more or less. I don't think fusion is quite huge - we can bring it to WY.  But it is certainly a head start that NH has over WY.  It will probably take us several years to get fusion in place in WY - that's time and political capital that we wouldn't have to spend in NH.  Still, if WY is really more libertarian, then a few years of political handicap will be overcome in the longer run.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2003, 03:27:50 pm by Leonard »
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Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2003, 03:33:29 pm »

I agree with Leonard's general sentiments.  Comparing voting numbers between two states with very different voting systems, different candidates, and different numbers of candidates is like comparing apples and oranges.  

And yes, fusion is a massive advantage.
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Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2003, 04:53:54 pm »


7. 2nd smallest number on welfare after Idaho (In 2000, Wyoming slashed its welfare roles more than any other state in the nation.  At that time, Wyoming had 1,288 people on welfare, as compared to New Hampshire's 14,287.)

http://www.stateline.org/fact.do?factId=521
http://www.stateline.org/fact.do;jsessionid=y8lp0od1l2?factId=122

I'll give you this one, Robert.  WY has the second-lowest proportion of welfare recipients of the ten candidate states, while NH comes in fourth.  

Of course we're defining "welfare" to mean AFDC, right?  There are plenty of other welfare provisions that NH does stellar in, while WY sinks to the bottom, such as farm subsidies.  I'll cover them later.

For now, I'll admit that on this measure, NH is behind WY.  Can't have 'em all.
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Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2003, 05:06:23 pm »

8. Lowest federal dependence in the West

Which is, of course, still much higher than New Hampshire.  The truth is that the people of the western states receive so much back in federal benefits, in the form of farm subsidies and highway money and the like, that they are bought and paid for.

No offense, folks, but how do you think the existing population will handle it if we try to talk them into not playing ball with the feds, and start threatening that pot of golden taxpayer dollars?  Do you really think they will be receptive to us?

Wyoming receives $1.14 back in benefits for every dollar it sends to Washington.  It and every other positive-benefit state are, IMO, leeches on the productive states in the nation, benefiting from the wealth distribution policies that we seek to end.  

Least federal dependency of any candidate state, with .71 cents returned of every dollar spent to feed the DC machine.

Reason number eight why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2003, 05:23:16 pm by Keith Murphy »
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Mickey

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2003, 09:15:18 pm »

3. In 2002, Wyomingites cast more votes for libertarian candidates than New Hampshirites:  43,944 to 39,762.  This is in spite of New Hampshire's larger population!  What does that do to per capita rankings?  Percentage-wise, libertarians in Wyoming received a total of 7.62% of the total votes cast in 2002 to New Hampshire's 2.68%.

http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=votesbystate
http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=percentbystate

I may not know what I'm talking about, but as I was checking this thread out I noticed that A huge amount (33,218) of Wyomings votes that year came from local elections. Aren't New Hampshire's local election non-partison, thus the 0 total votes for NH in local elections. Did NH run a bunch of local candidates that didn't get counted in these numbers?
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Robert H.

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2003, 03:28:54 am »

Votes for libertarians in Wyoming just constitute a fluke, or, at most, the expression of anti-Republican sentiment, eh?  Anything more is unthinkable.

If this is the assumption from which you are approaching the discussion, then there's nothing at all I could say on any of these issues that would make any difference whatsoever.

Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2003, 11:17:28 am »

Votes for libertarians in Wyoming just constitute a fluke, or, at most, the expression of anti-Republican sentiment, eh?  Anything more is unthinkable.

If this is the assumption from which you are approaching the discussion, then there's nothing at all I could say on any of these issues that would make any difference whatsoever.



Robert, that's not what I said.  Please quote me in context.

I said that it is a fluke for one of the major parties to not run a candidate in a statewide race.  That is the only reason the WYLP got major party status last year.  The only reason.  It would never have happened otherwise.  WY's requirement for major party status is actually 250% of NH's.  
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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2003, 04:08:12 pm »

9. Highest gun ownership rate (3rd most favorable gun laws), legal open carry of firearms.  New Hampshire has moderately better gun laws, but there's not that much of a gun culture there as compared to Wyoming.  

New Hampshire has passed Vermont, and with the possible exception of Alaska, has the most libertarian gun laws in the US!

From: http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2291

Quote
While most of us are familiar with Vermont Carry, what is less well known is that local municipalities in VT are allowed to pass their own local ordinances restricting gun rights. Apparently, places like Burlington have done this. I'm not sure to what degree.

Well - that is absolutely not allowed in New Hampshire. CCW licenses are given on a "shall issue" basis and from the GO-NH site "HB415 clarifies existing state law that says that only the New Hampshire legislature - NOT towns and cities - can regulate firearms." HB415 was necessary to prevent "the emergence of widely varying town laws which infringe upon the rights of gun owners and can make you a criminal as you travel from one locality to another going about your usual business."

Relevant Excerpt From HB 415

State Jurisdiction

159:26 Firearms and Ammunition; Authority of the State.

I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting a political subdivision's right to adopt zoning ordinances for the purpose of regulating firearms businesses in the same manner as other businesses or to take any action allowed under RSA 207.59.

Relevant excerpt from HB766

159:6 License to Carry.

I. The selectmen of a town or the mayor or chief of police of a city or some full-time police officer designated by them respectively, upon application of any resident of such town or city, or the director of state police, or some person designated by such director, upon application of a nonresident, shall issue a license to such applicant authorizing the applicant to carry a loaded pistol or revolver in this state for not less than 4 years from the date of issue, if it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear injury to the applicant's person or property or has any proper purpose, and that the applicant is a suitable person to be licensed. Hunting, target shooting, or self-defense shall be considered a proper purpose. The license shall be valid for all allowable purposes regardless of the purpose for which it was originally issued. The license shall be in duplicate and shall bear the name, address, description, and signature of the licensee. The original shall be delivered to the licensee and the duplicate shall be preserved by the people issuing the same for 4 years. When required, license renewal shall take place within the month of the fourth anniversary of the license holder's date of birth following the date of issuance. The license shall be issued within 14 days after application, and, if such application is denied, the reason for such denial shall be stated in writing, the original of which such writing shall be delivered to the applicant, and a copy kept in the office of the person to whom the application was made. The fee for licenses issued to residents of the state shall be $10, which fee shall be for the use of the law enforcement department of the town granting said licenses; the fee for licenses granted to out-of-state residents shall be $20, which fee shall be for the use of the state. The director of state police is hereby authorized and directed to prepare forms for the licenses required under this chapter and forms for the application for such licenses and to supply the same to officials of the cities and towns authorized to issue the licenses. No other forms shall be used by officials of cities and towns. The cost of the forms shall be paid out of the fees received from nonresident licenses.

II. No photograph or fingerprint shall be required or used as a basis to grant, deny, or renew a license to carry for a resident or nonresident, unless requested by the applicant.

Open carry without permit.  Must issue licenses for concealed carry.  Local jurisdictions cannot restrict gun freedoms.

Reason number nine why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
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