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Author Topic: New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA  (Read 24282 times)

Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2003, 07:17:54 pm »

On the same note of Benson being a "closet" libertarian, we can assume that others are. Maybe even in a place called Wyoming. Where they already have more freedoms than NH. Not such a big stretch now is it.  ;D

No, I'm sure that WY has its share of small "l" libertarians, holding office as Republicans.  I doubt it's as many as NH, but it has some.  

It doesn't have one in the governor's office, though.  It has a Democrat, doesn't it?  

What freedoms, pray tell, do those in WY have that those in NH do not?  I'm very curious.

libertarian Governor Craig Benson.

Reason number three why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2003, 08:02:24 pm »

Someone else appears to have done it for me... oh my, Big Brother, I hardly knew ye!
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Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2003, 01:42:51 am »

Only state in the nation that has the guts to tell the feds to stuff their seatbelt laws and highway money where the sun don't shine.  They just get the Mass tourists to pay for their highways instead, in the form of toll roads between Manchester and the Mass line.

Signs that say "Common sense for all," instead of having a seatbelt requirement.  

Reason number four why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
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Robert H.

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2003, 03:55:26 am »

In the Wyoming announcement that was sent out to the membership a subjective, inherently unprovable statement was sent out as fact:  that Wyoming is the most libertarian state in the nation.

So in response, you've created a thread that attempts to establish another subjective, inherently unprovable statement as fact: New Hampshire is the most libertarian state?  If you object to the notion of what was being asserted, that it is possible to identify the most libertarian state, then why are you countering it with another such assertion?

Quote
Others have made the same assertion, notably ZionCurtain, who has made this statement over and over again, as if doing so will make it true.  An example is below, one of dozens.

By the facts in front of me, New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.  I challenge a supporter of the other states to present a coherent, ALL-INCLUSIVE case why another state should take the claim.

"All-inclusive" means that cherry-picking is not allowed, you can't just ignore facts when they are convenient or spin neutral facts your way.  Attempts to do so will be laughingly pointed out.

Go ahead, Keith and Paul, take a whack.  I'm looking forward to it.  

I'm not Keith or Paul, but I'll take a whack at it.

I don't believe that any state can be correctly described as "libertarian," for a variety of reasons, but I believe that certain states are definitely more libertarian-leaning than others.  Of all of the research that's been done here, I'd personally rank (in no particular order) ID, AK, NH, and WY as the most libertarian states in the country.  Idaho then tends to trail the other three due to fiscal issues.  For instance, they've just recently raised taxes there, and their legislature has defeated citizen initiatives for term limits twice now.

Of the remaining three though, I'd have to say that Wyoming is the more libertarian.  The difference between Wyoming and New Hampshire is not one of night and day certainly, but I believe it's there nonetheless, as measured by the following indicators:

1. State LP has Major Party Status (not true in New Hampshire).
2. Average statewide vote for Harry Browne from 1996-2000 was greater in Wyoming than New Hampshire (.74 % as compared to .66%).  Yes, I know quite well by now that New Hampshire has more elected libertarians than any other state, but I believe this statewide ranking for a presidential candidate who has no chance demonstrates a more deeply rooted committment to the libertarian agenda.  Now image if we gave these Wyomingites a slate of libertarian candidates who haven't adopted the failed methods of the national LP?
3. In 2002, Wyomingites cast more votes for libertarian candidates than New Hampshirites:  43,944 to 39,762.  This is in spite of New Hampshire's larger population!  What does that do to per capita rankings?  Percentage-wise, libertarians in Wyoming received a total of 7.62% of the total votes cast in 2002 to New Hampshire's 2.68%.  Again, this is substantial evidence that these people will vote for us, and probably in larger numbers, if we give them good candidates.  Dave Dawson ran for US Senator in Wyoming in 2000 and picked up 8,950 votes, and then, despite his "I don't pay US federal income tax" rhetoric, he still managed to pick up 3,924 votes.  Again, I believe that these people will vote for us, if we give them decent candidates.

http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=votesbystate
http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=percentbystate

4. No personal or business income tax (New Hampshire taxes dividend and interest income, targeting "unearned" income).
5. Lowest property taxes (this affects individual property rights - New Hampshire has some of the highest property taxes in the country, and is the #1 most property-tax dependent state).
6. Best for lack of planning and zoning (those quaint little New England towns aren't likely to stand for anyone "trashing" them).
7. 2nd smallest number on welfare after Idaho (In 2000, Wyoming slashed its welfare roles more than any other state in the nation.  At that time, Wyoming had 1,288 people on welfare, as compared to New Hampshire's 14,287.)

http://www.stateline.org/fact.do?factId=521
http://www.stateline.org/fact.do;jsessionid=y8lp0od1l2?factId=122

8. Lowest federal dependence in the West
9. Highest gun ownership rate (3rd most favorable gun laws), legal open carry of firearms.  New Hampshire has moderately better gun laws, but there's not that much of a gun culture there as compared to Wyoming.  New Hampshire also lacks a firearms pre-emption law.
10. 3rd best homeschooling laws (According to the Homeschool Legal Defense Association, Wyoming ranks as a "low regulation" state.  New Hampshire ranks as a "moderate regulation" state).

http://hslda.org/laws/

11. Best hunting laws
12. The only FSP state without a "hate crimes" law (one of only 8 states in the country with this designation).  I believe this shows that political correctness has not infused itself into state government in Wyoming.  New Hampshire prosecutes for hate crimes.
13. Helmets not required for adult motorcycle operators.
14. State GOP upholds an individual's "right to die" in its party platform.
15. State GOP includes the return of all federal lands to the state as part of its platform.
16. Open containers permitted for auto passengers.
17. Wyoming's Congressional Representation (GOP) voting record has been rated as follows (as you can see, liberty groups love Wyoming's reps, big government groups hate them):
 
Republican Liberty Caucus: "libertarian" (both social and fiscal issues)
American Federation of Government Employees: Worst state
National Education Association: Worst
Americans for the Arts: Worst
Gun Owners of America: Best
National Taxpayers Union: Best
VoteHemp.com: Best
Citizens Against Government Waste: 2nd Best
 
18. American Lung Association ranks Wyoming smoking laws: Worst in the nation
19. Fiscally conservative, socially libertarian federal circuit court
20. High speed limits (75mph - New Hampshire - 65)
21. More permissive fireworks regulations than New Hampshire.

http://www.fireworksafety.com/statelaws

22. Less highway safety regulation than New Hampshire.

http://www.hwysafety.org/safety_facts/state_laws/measure_up.htm

23. Wyoming permits citizen initiatives and referendums; New Hampshire does not.
24. A balanced budget and significant reserve fund.  Wyoming is not under the same pressure to raise taxes as New Hampshire has been, nor has it had to accept federal money to balance its budget.  In fact, Wyoming is considering lowering its already low 4% state sales tax.
25. Highly individualistic society with a reputation for defending state's rights.  Wyoming has even bucked both Montana and Idaho over issues related to Yellowstone.  Wyoming is constantly bickering with the federal government over land usage, endangered species protection, etc.  
26. Wyoming was the first government in the world to grant women the right to vote, and Wyoming women were also the first in the nation to serve on juries and hold public office.  This legacy has earned Wyoming the nickname: "Equality State."  New Hampshire had an impressive Revolutionary War record, but 100 years later, it turned its back on the idea of a people's right to self-determination and participated in Lincoln's unlawful invasion of the Southern states, a legacy it still celebrates to this day.

There will inevitably be some discussion of federal farm subsidies and government land-ownership here, but there are facts to consider there as well, and I believe they speak well for Wyoming.

The western states were not settled in the same fashion as the eastern states.  The west was divided up into parcels as suited Congress's fancy, and their growth and political processes were heavily controlled by Washington.  The eastern states were settled long before the federal government existed and could make any claims of "national sovereignty," thereby interfering in state affairs at its leisure.  Thus, the western states did not choose to become more federally dependent, or to give up more land to the government.  They had little choice in the matter at the time.

In spite of this legacy, Wyoming has still risen to the position where it is the least federally dependent FSP candidate, and where it continuously bucks the federal government.  Personally, I have tremendous respect for a people who are able to rise up against adversity and assert themselves.

Fire away, Keith.  But remember, no cherry-picking!   ;D ;)

freedomroad

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2003, 05:12:36 am »


Go ahead, Keith and Paul, take a whack.  I'm looking forward to it.  


I already produced a report (maybe 8 weeks ago).  The state report should be out in 5-10 days.  It compares all 10 states on many objective (and very important) factors.

The final answer?
The report sums with the top 5 candidate states being:
WY
ID
AK
NH
MT

NH is not bad, 6 out of 10 states.

Also, maybe you should read the Wyoming Report #2, which compares all of the states.  It, along with the 2 websites, have article after article explaining why WY is the most libertarian or best state:

http://www.freestateproject.org/wyoming2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/freewyoming
http://members.aol.com/wyomingliberty

Also, I highly recommend reading some Wyoming newspapers:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1569&start=0


No matter what I think of NH, I gotta love your name :)

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Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2003, 01:06:46 pm »


2. Average statewide vote for Harry Browne from 1996-2000 was greater in Wyoming than New Hampshire (.74 % as compared to .66%).  

Of course, NH still gave more overall votes to Browne, just a slightly lower percentage.  Well, I certainly agree that percentage is the right measure to use.

The difference is .08%.  Pretty insignificant.  

Let's see: which is a more effective measure of "libertarian-ness:"

1.)  The 26 - 1 number of elected Libertarians, or

2.)  The .08% difference in votes for Harry Browne in 1996-2000


hmmmmm.....

I'll take the 26 elected Libertarians in New Hampshire over the 1 in Wyoming any day of the week.  This is a state LP that delivers results.  They know how to get people elected.  When the national LP tried to tell them how to do things they ended the affiliation.

The most politically savvy Libertarian Party in the US.

Reason number six why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
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Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2003, 01:31:40 pm »


1. State LP has Major Party Status (not true in New Hampshire).

Now, Robert, you know as well as I do that this fact isn't as impressive as it sounds when you put it in context.

The Democratic Party did not field a candidate to run against incumbent Republican Joe Meyer for Secretary of State in 2002.  The WYLP ran Marie Brossman, garnering 17% of the vote, thereby achieving major party status.

What you must realize is that the vast majority of votes for Ms. Brossman came from Democrats who didn't want to vote for the Republican and didn't know anything about the LP.  They walked into the booth, saw the hated Republican and an unknown alternative and chose the unknown.  

It was a fluke, a lucky event, and you know as well as I do that unless the Dems let another race go by without challenging the WYLP will lose their major party status in 2006.

Compare this with New Hampshire.  Where you need 10% in a statewide race for major party status in Wyoming, which can only happen through unlikely events such as the Democrats not running a candidate, you only need 4% in NH.  The LPNH had major party status until recently, and I am confident that they will regain it next year with the candidacy of Dan Belforti for US Senate.

How about this for a measure of libertarianness: New Hampshire has the highest per capita percentage of LP members in the nation.  Wyoming? It comes in ninth.  Not bad, but not first.  Behind Alaska and even Vermont.  

Highest per capita LP membership in the US.

Reason number five why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
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jgmaynard

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2003, 01:37:59 pm »

Here's a story of the Benson meeting I haven't shared yet, because it occured before the official meeting.
But when I got there, I was running about 10 mins late, and couldn't find anyone. I went in, still no one around. I asked the guide at the door, and he said "They might be in the Governor's office. Room 208", and gave me directions. So, I went upstairs (no search, signing in, etc.) and walked right into the Governor's office. His receptionist (a male) said he hadn't seen the FSP group yet, and I went out to the hall.
As I'm standing by a stairwell, I heard voices from below saying "Well, it's called the Free State Project and....". Then I see Amanda and Jessica walking with an official whose face I recognized, but I couldn't place the name. So, Amanda asked me to explain the FSP to the fellow, who stopped and listened closely as I went into a short rendition of the front page of the site, noting the fact the chosen state may be New Hampshire. His response was "That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire". Then, he thanked us, and left, walking into the State Senate chamber for the historic budget sessions.
So such is the take from a NH State Senator...

JM
« Last Edit: July 02, 2003, 01:40:37 pm by jgmaynard »
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ZionCurtain

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2003, 01:54:56 pm »

"That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire".
I guess we are taking that as a positive? Or is it meant like, NH is full of nutty people?
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Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2003, 01:58:41 pm »

"That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire".
I guess we are taking that as a positive? Or is it meant like, NH is full of nutty people?

Only if you define "nutty people" as libertarians.
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jenlee

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2003, 01:59:20 pm »

Define nutty people?

99.99% of the US will/does think the people invovled with FSP is at the very least nutty and more I am sure.

If by nutty people you mean they dare to think the way they wish to think, live the way thy wish to live etc, well nutty isn't bad.

Heck I personally know a lot of "nutty" folks. lol Ain't telling if I have ever been called nutty or its equivalent   ;D


"That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire".
I guess we are taking that as a positive? Or is it meant like, NH is full of nutty people?
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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2003, 02:01:46 pm »

Here's a story of the Benson meeting I haven't shared yet, because it occured before the official meeting.
But when I got there, I was running about 10 mins late, and couldn't find anyone. I went in, still no one around. I asked the guide at the door, and he said "They might be in the Governor's office. Room 208", and gave me directions. So, I went upstairs (no search, signing in, etc.) and walked right into the Governor's office. His receptionist (a male) said he hadn't seen the FSP group yet, and I went out to the hall.
As I'm standing by a stairwell, I heard voices from below saying "Well, it's called the Free State Project and....". Then I see Amanda and Jessica walking with an official whose face I recognized, but I couldn't place the name. So, Amanda asked me to explain the FSP to the fellow, who stopped and listened closely as I went into a short rendition of the front page of the site, noting the fact the chosen state may be New Hampshire. His response was "That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire". Then, he thanked us, and left, walking into the State Senate chamber for the historic budget sessions.
So such is the take from a NH State Senator...

JM

Sounds just like every person I met while I was up for the "Escape." So the senators are a reflection of everyone else in that regard. They think for a moment and then tell you that it sounds like New Hampshire is the right place for the FSP.
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jenlee

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2003, 02:08:54 pm »

Yes but is it? And does he just say that or does he really mean it? I mean, he didn't talk at length about FSP did he? He just made a little comment. And one that while it "sounds" good doesn't mean we should bank on.  I mean, if the government from very candidate state should make the same comment, does that mean every state is just as good? Does that mean every state should be voted to win?

I mean, one little comment does not prove anything.

Here's a story of the Benson meeting I haven't shared yet, because it occured before the official meeting.
But when I got there, I was running about 10 mins late, and couldn't find anyone. I went in, still no one around. I asked the guide at the door, and he said "They might be in the Governor's office. Room 208", and gave me directions. So, I went upstairs (no search, signing in, etc.) and walked right into the Governor's office. His receptionist (a male) said he hadn't seen the FSP group yet, and I went out to the hall.
As I'm standing by a stairwell, I heard voices from below saying "Well, it's called the Free State Project and....". Then I see Amanda and Jessica walking with an official whose face I recognized, but I couldn't place the name. So, Amanda asked me to explain the FSP to the fellow, who stopped and listened closely as I went into a short rendition of the front page of the site, noting the fact the chosen state may be New Hampshire. His response was "That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire". Then, he thanked us, and left, walking into the State Senate chamber for the historic budget sessions.
So such is the take from a NH State Senator...

JM

Sounds just like every person I met while I was up for the "Escape." So the senators are a reflection of everyone else in that regard. They think for a moment and then tell you that it sounds like New Hampshire is the right place for the FSP.
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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2003, 02:10:33 pm »

Add to my above post, add in senators as well.

Really I shoudl read close but my question still stands as it is and also with this add on.
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Rearden

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Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2003, 02:16:11 pm »


3. In 2002, Wyomingites cast more votes for libertarian candidates than New Hampshirites:  43,944 to 39,762.  This is in spite of New Hampshire's larger population!  What does that do to per capita rankings?  Percentage-wise, libertarians in Wyoming received a total of 7.62% of the total votes cast in 2002 to New Hampshire's 2.68%.  Again, this is substantial evidence that these people will vote for us, and probably in larger numbers, if we give them good candidates.  Dave Dawson ran for US Senator in Wyoming in 2000 and picked up 8,950 votes, and then, despite his "I don't pay US federal income tax" rhetoric, he still managed to pick up 3,924 votes.  Again, I believe that these people will vote for us, if we give them decent candidates.

http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=votesbystate
http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=percentbystate

But of the 43,944 votes WY residents cast for Libertarians in 2002, 29,751, a full 67.7% of them, were for Marie Brossman, running in a two-way race against a Republican!  The vast majority of those votes indisputably came from Democrats who couldn't bring themselves to either not vote or vote for the Republican!

The 2002 election results from WY are a fluke.  It will never happen again.  

I mean, geez, if the Democrats in NH didn't bother to run someone against Craig Benson next year I bet the LP gubernatorial candidate there would see a significant jump in votes, too.  That doesn't translate into real popular support for the party ideals.
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