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Author Topic: NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd  (Read 13472 times)

ZionCurtain

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Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2003, 10:26:53 am »

exitus, I think Montana would be a better compromise then Idaho. Less population being the biggest factor.
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freedomroad

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Re:*ID* and WY and Mormons
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2003, 01:54:36 pm »

OK guys.  I guess we have gone off topic.  So, I started a new thread about Mormons and ID and
WY.

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2189
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freedomroad

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Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2003, 01:59:34 pm »

exitus, I think Montana would be a better compromise then Idaho. Less population being the biggest factor.

OK, if that is what it is about, than WY wins be a large margin.

On the other hand, if it is about weather, Wyoming also wins.  Heck, Cheyenne has better weather than even Boise.  They have about the same winter temps.  Cheyenne's winter days are equal to or warmer than Boise's.  Although, Cheyenne does get colder than Boise at night.  But for summer temp, Cheyenne has a MUCH BETTER climate than Boise's non-stop heat.  Cheyenne is not but a tiny amount more windy than Boston, MA, so that should not hard on Eastern urban folks.

What about closeness to major MSAs?  Wyoming wins that hands down.  In fact, Wyoming is the only Western state that is close to a large MSA.  It gets even better, though, because Wyoming is actually close to two different large MSA's.  Besides, much of Wyoming is closer to Billings (MT's largest city), than most of MT is.

Why is Montana so good, anyway?
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Chris_H

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Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2003, 08:52:54 pm »

IMHO, I agree with previous posters that a compromise state should be found.

I think ID and MT are the two best "middle ground" states of all of the candidate's. I lean towards MT though, because like ZionCurtain mentioned before, ID's population is high (and additionally ID is expected to exceed the FSP's limit of 1.5 million).

Quote
Why is Montana so good, anyway?

Here are some of my reasons for agreeing that MT is the best compromise out there...

Population
Population may be important, but it isn't the Alpha and Omega of the issue. If it were, I'd have WY at the top of my list too.

The population in MT is higher than WY, but lower than either NH or ID. Growth in MT is expected to stay below 1.5 million even by 2015. If the population cutoff point was 500,000, WY would be the only candidate.

While WY does have the lowest population of all the candidates, there's alot of things lacking in WY due to that small size. Varrin has already stated that WY lacks much in the way of air service. I don't remember in which thread, but Jason has pointed out that there's only one accredited university in WY. MT has 9 accredited universities throughout the state (unless I've missed a couple), and more air service than WY, (although not as much as ID or NH).

Number of Voters
WY (213K) is the lowest again, but MT (411K) has fewer voters than either ID (488K) or NH (567K).

Jobs
WY's low population doesn't translate into FSP success. The job market sucks, and "You can't eat the scenery". If FSP members can't make a living and end up moving to other states how successful can you call the project?

ID & NH have two of the best job markets, and job growth is stronger in both than MT, but job growth is expected to be much stronger in MT than in WY.

Large Cities
Cheyenne is the only large city in WY, with 70K people. (Denver and SLC are not in WY.) MT has a lot of cities comparable in size to Cheyenne (Missoula, Billings, Helena, Butte, Bozeman & Great Falls are a half dozen I can name off the top of my head.)

Weather
According to the averages from http://wcc.nrcs.usda.gov, Cheyenne and Boise are about the same temp in Winter, but Cheyenne annual snowfall average is more than twice as much as Boise's average. In Summer, Boise is warmer, but only by about 6 degrees (the average high in Boise is 86, far from being the 7th circle of Hell compared to Cheyenne). Helena, MT is colder on average than Cheyenne, but it's by an average of 2.5 degrees throughout the year, and it still averages less snow per year.

In any case, the weather in WY, ID and MT varies so much statewide that anyone can find a climate to suit them in any of the states. Weather might be a factor, but it shouldn't be a major one.

Taxes
I also think that MT is a good compromise state for tax reasons.

 - MT has an income tax, but no sales tax.
 - WY has a sales tax and no income tax.
 - ID has both, and NH has neither.

I've seen it mentioned that existing state taxes could be a good issue for the FSP. The reasoning is that the existing population could very well join us in fighting against taxes, but they may not be as easy to rouse in fighting against regulations that they generally don't seem to notice as much. I think MT and WY are better in this regard than NH.

MT and WY both also beat ID, since there's only one tax to fight against, rather than the two in ID.

I think that MT is better than WY in this too. Even though WY may have no income tax, if you were forced to find work in a neighboring state like CO or UT, you'd be entirely negating the income tax advantage of WY, because you'd still be stuck with an income tax. Even worse, you couldn't fight that tax because you'd have no voice in the state that would be taking it.

Area
It may not be a concern for some, but I agree with the idea that a smaller state would not do. I don't care for NH because of its' size, and its' neighbors with statist tendencies.

MT is the biggest state of the 4. In fact it's the 4th largest state in the US. All of MT's neighbors are FSP candidate states with liberty friendly populations that the FSP could possibly expand to in the future. Maine is the only other state that can make that claim.


Just my 2 cents... (OK, maybe 4 cents).

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StevenN

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Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2003, 09:32:46 pm »

Quote
Population may be important, but it isn't the Alpha and Omega of the issue.


Hey, I totally agree! So why not consider NH?! Comparing MT and NH, I can't see how MT would have an advantage!
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Racer X

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Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2003, 09:34:44 pm »

For those who are 'hell bent' on moving to a higher population state.  Idaho is clearly a better choice than New Hampshire.  New Hampshire is hopeless.  I realize they are more freedom oriented than the rest of New England now, but much of their future growth is tied to socialist Boston.  You cannot take Boston out of the equation.  New Hampshire's boosters are also largely tied to a political party that is a national joke.

Regarding Montana as a Western compromise state:  Well, I suppose it is as far as population goes, but we're seeing a lot of left wing trends there.  Montana is still better than Alaska, or anything in the East.

I think many of us Western supporters have chosen our compromise state already.

The compromise state is....."not New Hampshire".

Rank NH where it belongs.  Last.


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Dalamar49

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Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2003, 10:02:20 pm »

Whoa! Rank NH last? If you seriously think NH deserves to be last then I question your apparent suseptibility to personel bias.  >:(
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StevenN

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Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2003, 10:12:05 pm »

The idea that Boston is going to "drown" NH is just speculation (wrong, I believe. And my assertion that it won't be a problem is speculation, too). Certainly on par with the speculation that the jobs in WY will be sufficient for the FSP. NH has lived next to Boston for 350 years and it hasn't really hurt them!

I question the idea that NH is "surrounded" by a sea of statism. The people in VT are very libertarian-minded. It's just that the state's been hijacked by a few hippies. Maine wouldn't be anything to worry about. Even Western Mass could be considered at least neutral/friendly! And as I've said before, Boston is not Pyonyang. Nor will Bostonians see NH and think "Grrr...they've got too much freedom! We've got to stop them". Porcupines seem to hold themselves in higher regard than they deserve; a bit egotistical and adversarial. They seem to think that, once this project is airborne, all the "enemies" are going to be launching an all-out offensive. Basically, you're not that important! I've known Massachusetts Democrats. They are very aware of NH's libertarian streak. When I ask how they feel about it, they give an apathetic shoulder-shrug and think, "hey, if that's how they want to do it.."

Let me ask, in what regards will the MA liberals exactly "go to war on us" if NH is selected? Certainly not the social issues. State expenditures? Well, NH doesn't have much of those anyway. The only thing I can think of is education and health care. Porcupines have really 2 choices in education. One, let the system implode. If this happens, I don't think eliminating it will meet much resistance. Two, vouchers. These have been difficult to pass in every state, so I think it could only work after the populace gets sick and tired of the system.

I just don't see how precisely Boston will be a problem.
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Racer X

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Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2003, 10:53:26 pm »

Steven,
You are correct that I can't guarantee that Boston will sink the FSP, but no other state on the list seems to have this risk of slow statist invasion.  No other state has such a liberal urban center nearby(ok, maybe Delaware).  I'm thinking of what's happening in Nevada.  People come for jobs and cheap land and eventually install their California politics.

Yes, NH is surrounded by a sea of statism and political correctness.  There is resistance in Vermont , but they are losing.  Yes, the statists will fight us on social issues.  They will want government funded solutions.  Even on issues like drug decrim they will prefer "tax it and relax it" type solutions.  Same for enviromental issues.  Why take the risk?

Regarding the population numbers, I agree with what you said in the other thread, that attitudes are sometimes as important as the numbers.  I don't think this works in our favor with new Hampshire's increasing population.

I think we could turn some southern states not under consideration before we could turn NH (if the Libertarian looniness was turned down a notch).  I realize the list of state choices isn't going to change, though.

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varrin

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Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2003, 11:34:41 pm »

... no other state on the list seems to have this risk of slow statist invasion.  

You're forgetting about the anti-Idaho mantra that there is a slow statist invasion of Idaho.  In fact, there's a fast statist invasion of America, but that's beside the point ;-)

V-

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Chris_H

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Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2003, 12:08:27 am »

My point was that I think that a compromise state should be found. Meaning something between NH and WY.

For example, NH has some really good points (like great job outlooks), but it's also expected to exceed 1.5 million population by 2015, which would arguably make it too big for the FSP to succeed, regardless of attitudes.

On the other end, WY also has some really good points, and it has the lowest population of the candidates; but it's job prospects are weak.

Quote
Comparing MT and NH, I can't see how MT would have an advantage!

 - The population in MT is lower than NH.

 - MT (411K) has fewer voters than NH (567K).

 - MT's campaign spending (10.9 million) is almost half as low as NH's (19.6 million).

 - NH has no income taxes, which would be good if the FSP was aiming to move to a state and maintain the current status quo. MT has an income tax which might be a good issue to gather popular support in the state. Trying to get support from the population in fighting laws that they just don't care about might be harder.

 - I agree that NH probably wouldn't be "drowned" by Boston, or that it wouldn't have neighboring states going to war with them over differences. But there are two (valid, I think) concerns that people have about statist neighbors, which are both in evidence here in NV:

One is the issue of people moving to a freer state with a lower cost of living, and bringing their statist tendencies with them.

The other neighbors fighting over tax collections. Here in NV there are two neighboring counties that have been fighting for the last year and a half. Both sides are fighting about where local businesses might locate, because both counties want the taxes those businesses would bring. If NH were picked and became more pro-business, would Massachusetts become more free-trade oriented and start trying to compete, or would they try to recover those taxes that they might be losing? I won't pretend to know the answer, but I wouldn't doubt on a bitter fight happening before a resolution came along.

As for seeing some left-wing trends in MT; isn't that an issue with any state?

IMHO, I don't think NH should be last (probably 4th), but I thnk MT is still the best possible compromise.  ;)

Again, just my opinion...
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