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Author Topic: Convince Me....  (Read 18288 times)

time4liberty

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2010, 03:35:08 pm »

Well our system today includes an implicit social contract - consensus prior to acting is not required.

Sorry, I don't mean to be mean, but that's hogwash. Or rather, a convenient excuse to demand arbitrary obedience and resources from anyone and everyone on an arbitrarily defined plot of land. "They consented! Really they did! If they don't like me taking their stuff, they should move out of what I have magically decided is my 'territory'"
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 03:36:40 pm by time4liberty »
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WendellBerry

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2010, 06:18:52 am »

Well our system today includes an implicit social contract - consensus prior to acting is not required.

Sorry, I don't mean to be mean, but that's hogwash. Or rather, a convenient excuse to demand arbitrary obedience and resources from anyone and everyone on an arbitrarily defined plot of land. "They consented! Really they did! If they don't like me taking their stuff, they should move out of what I have magically decided is my 'territory'"

Yes, but to replace a system with a monopoly on force within a territory with polycentric law and private defense agencies is a BIG stretch.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2010, 06:30:30 am »

you can join a free county project is wyoming .... but it is secret
you can choose a really unpopulated county in say mt and wyoming (I think my Dad and I landed on Thermopolis in MT) and go there and convince others
you can join some of us effecting a the town and county of grafton and the whole state .... some guys are even into getting a better sheriff for this county .... see rich angell for details

Jason is right.

it is not that easy .... but you can start now

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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

Mdj

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2010, 08:26:53 am »

Undecided,
For the most part I am with you. Except the county idea. It is too small to be effective in my opinion.

When you said:
Absolute pretense of acting under cover of law will have to be shed, because you will eventually HAVE to nullify federal law, which means opposing the interpretation of "supremacy" that most US citizens hold (you won't be able to influence the federal legislature enough to change things "legally"). In the eyes of many Americans, you will be behaving unlawfully by trying to create a free society.

That really articulated thoughts I have been having though I had not put them into words yet, it was a gut feeling. But for most of my life I believed that human made laws are beneath me in a way and are meant to hold me down. I feel most laws are unnecessary as well. Whatever ends up happening, I think most will agree, a strict interpretation of the DOI or Constitution is needed and that means the several states taking back their power and telling the federal government off say in relation to the Income Tax.

And then it comes down to an eventual confrontation with the Federal Govt. This I can guarantee. I can see the mainstream corporate media reports now... labeling us as a bunch of tea party baggers / third party freaks. In turn garnering support from zombies in NY, CA or wherever that NH really ought to be crushed... etc.

But I also agree with a previous comment someone (help me) made about making the decision just after the train has left the station and where we all get off. It is a matter of timing. And to connect the two ideas, timing is key, if it gets crazy in NH too soon we are done. But who the hell knows?

In the context of the FSP could you further articulate what you see as being the best course of action? If you made the rules for this group what would they be? That is if you are still lurking nearby.
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JAC

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2010, 08:14:39 pm »

I don't care if the oppressors say that we can't resist, I wouldn't expect anything else. The REALITY is that we can't appeal to strictly legal measures when the law only works to impede our efforts,
How does a law (for example) allowing New Hampshire the freedom to decide certain policies for itself, despite what the Federal government says, "impede" our efforts?  The fact is that some laws strengthen our efforts - especially in terms of dealing with the Federal government.


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Besides the fact that it's an impossible playing field, I don't see why you even provide the appearance of credibility for said playing field.
Politics is impossible?  This might be true in bigger states, where the process is closed and corrupt, and where campaigns are required to be economic powerhouses.  Not only do states like that breed political machines, but the system itself demands that machines evolve to isolate themselves from competition, and to become bigger.  Mass democracy helps create this kind of isolation.

But New Hampshire is not such a place.  There are not really any serious political machines on the local level here.  Our democracy is not "massive", and so it is local enough that people pay attention, and statesman are required to be more honest and to more accurately represent their constituents - or they simply won't get elected.  And, of course, once more people begin running for office in the system, those qualities will only strengthen due to the competition, and the democratic process will become stronger; further allowing the will of the people to truly be expressed.

Let me ask though, what would it take to prove to you that politics is a "credible field"?


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You say you don't think a lot of what happens is right per se, but it's legal reality. But if their actions are not rooted in our consent, then they win out not through legal authority (consent required), but with force. So if we play by the rules that they make, and are designed to keep us down, and they play by the rules of brute force, who's going to win? That's the REALITY.
It's called changing the rules.  Which requires people get elected.  Which requires people move to New Hampshire.  Which requires New Hampshire to have a local enough democracy that we can talk to people, be honest with them, not have any money, run a real door-to-door campaign, and win.

THESE THINGS ARE ALL HAPPENING.


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I wouldn't make a county secede, we would each voluntarily secede, and then voluntarily enter a compact, without regard to the contiguity of our property (although proximity would be nice, hence the county idea > state idea)
States have well-defined property lines, which are recognized and respected by the Federal government, and other state governments.  Saying, "This is New Hampshire; this is our legislature; this is the voice of our democracy..." immediately gives us the legitimacy to do certain things in the eyes of the American public and its elected officials.  Having an entire legislature say, "No" to the REAL ID, for example, is much more powerful than having some county somewhere that doesn't even have any power say "No."

A county does not have the ability to defend itself from the Federal government (hell, not even the State government).  The institutional structures simply are not in place.  It was never meant to serve that purpose to begin with.  State governments, on the other hand, were explicitly created to serve the purpose of regulating corrupt federal power; and they have the tools in place to aid in that effort.

So saying, "It won't work because politics is "their" game", just doesn't cut it.  In New Hampshire, politics is a game anyone can easily get involved in - it is literally EVERYONE'S game, if they choose to play it.  We can work with our neighbors towards establishing true community involvement in matters that concern us, because the institution is set up so well to involve as much of the community as possible.  This is not true in other places, of course.  But we're not talking about liberty in the lifetime of California or New York.  We're talking about New Hampshire.


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If we peacefully seceded, I wouldn't bet that we would be "crushed." I cite your own belief that there are limits to what the feds can get away with, it's not quite a dictatorship yet. I do admit it'd be rolling the dice. But you have to take chances if you really want to win here.
Chances, sure.  But, understand, the legislative process is set up, to begin with, so that chances are not just "taken" willy-nilly.  It is a slow process that requires majority vote.  And if anything ever having to do with "secession" EVER came up, everyone in New Hampshire would know about it and be talking about it.

Therefore, a bill would never even be taken seriously to begin with unless the men/women who wrote it thought it could pass.  And it would never pass the House to begin with unless the people of New Hampshire overwhelmingly supported it (because, if they didn't, they would call, write, and talk to their legislators and let them know).  And it would definitely never pass the Senate to begin with, and be signed by the Governor, unless they too were either libertarian, or de facto libertarian on this issue due to the sheer public support the issue had.

So, we're not just talking about a few people challenging the Feds on its power, if it goes too far.  We're talking about an entire democratic system, with all its appropriate and well-tuned social dynamics, coming together to support the idea of New Hampshire sovereignty.  A confrontation with the Feds will never happen unless this hardened, democratic process thoroughly, THOROUGHLY approves.  Which means, if a "confrontation" does happen, it will be an entire state of people demanding their freedom, not just a small minority.

And, of course, you should also understand that this won't just come out of nowhere.  If it were to happen, the Feds would most likely have been appeasing us for years prior, granting us this freedom here, and letting us get away with that freedom there - so as to AVOID conflict themselves (the Feds do NOT want conflict any more than we do). 


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I did not mean to claim that a state couldn't achieve freedom and a county could. I meant that 20,000 people would have an enourmous impact on a county of say 10,000 while the impact on a state of 1.3 million is miniscule.
But who cares if you have an enormous impact on a county...?  Counties can't DO anything!

I mean, hell, by that logic, we could get 100 people to move anywhere in the entire world and have an even MORE ENORMOUS impact on one random guy somewhere (since one guy is even smaller than a county!).  But if that one random guy can't do anything about the situation - because he's only one guy - then what would be the point?


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In the end, we might have to defend our rights, even against violence.
Violence will not happen.  Violence requires conflict, or disagreement; and the democratic system in New Hampshire requires that any kind of serious change in policy be supported by an overwhelming majority of New Hampshire citizens.  Anyone who CARES about an issue in NH, will let everyone KNOW THAT THEY CARE.  And those who do not care are not likely to cause conflict, because they are unlikely to have a stance on the issue to begin with (since they don't care ;D).
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2010, 08:15:35 pm »

i don't pay attention to the "democracy" enough to really know what is happening
many in nh don't even vote at all
doesn't seem like a legitimate way to make decisions to me
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2010, 03:10:16 am »

to RichW:

ThankThat's why secession is justified. If government has been formed in accord with the social contract, as most government lovers believe, then we should be free to reject the terms of the contract. Since our government does not accept this as our right, it holds us against our will, and it becomes impossible to suggest that the government is rooted in the social contract. Simply because an arbitrary fraction of a population residing within an arbitrarily defined geographically contiguous area want us to pay them tribute, does not mean that we have to. We always have the RIGHT to resist!

PS: Where in the enumerated powers of the federal government is it granted the right to keep us from leaving the compact?


You make valid points.
Deep down, I think all political activism is futile. Voting is futile, and elections are futile also. We are like rats in the cage of laws, you can run any way you want, yell, protest, vote for this or that, but in the end, it's all a delusion. The System is designed to make any real change impossible under status quo.  Read Boston T. Party's "The Hologram of Liberty", one of the best books on that subject and sorely missing education for the community. He goes in great depth about these issues.

The Constitution has been a fraud. The delegates were sent to the Philly convention to *revise* the Articles of Confederation, not completely scrap them and come up with a new form of government. The Anti-Federalists, like Jefferson (Who hates Hamilton with a passion), George Mason, etc. were highly skeptical of the Constitution and demanded the Bill of Rights as a way to guard against abuse. All of their predictions came true.  The propaganda, back then and what you hear now about the Articles of Confederation being weak is nonsense. Under the Articles, we won against the superpower of that day, the UK. The fact that states were decentralized was a huge plus, not a minus.

Anyway, the 10th Amendment proved to be a failure too, as well as the system of checks and balances is another fairy tale taught on the high school level... Basically a government cannot have a check against itself on the same level. Only different levels of government can be an effective check and balance upon each other. Case in point, state gov can be a check on the federal government. But the Supreme Court cannot and has not been a check on either Congress or executive branches.  The Supreme Court, e.g. has been just another tentacle of the federal octopus affirming its decisions.  

If you are looking for a political solution, there is none.   Yes, even if theoretically the entire gov of NH was replaced by FSP, it still wouldn't amount to much, if anything, because we would still be liable for federal taxes, still be liable to EPA, FDA, the and Federal Reserve System would still flood the land with its worthless currency. So when it comes right down to it, people  dance around the issue but in the long run all political solutions like FSP and such are just an aspirin for a brain tumor and there doesn't appear to be a way to accomplish anything without secession.   And the tyrants will not let you go peacefully.  

The most ideal situation that I see arise out of the FSP is some government who can just draw the line and say to the feds  no more of your rules and regulations, we are a sovereign state and you don't run us anymore like a province of the central government.  And then have the organized 'national guard' equivalent called to back this up.

I am not moving to NH because of FSP, I see it as a possible step in the right direction but remain skeptical. I am moving to NH for other reasons: That it's rated as a free state, I like the self-reliance  of the citizenry, I like the climate and the terrain and it's a lot cheaper than DC area, though not the cheapest. I considered other states to move to, like Idaho and TN but NH seems to be the best compromise of what I want.
Western states  might be as good as NH in  some general sense but they have real water issues, being in a completely different terrain. Cannot grow things. TSHTF happens and you have no food... Even if NH is a little more expensive than some other rural western states, it's well worth it. Plus even in a TSHTF situation, the business climate will remain important. You still need to have some kind of source of income. So NH I think is a pretty practical choice.

Being so small and next door to some questionable neighbors worries me but I think the most important thing is to stop looking at things globally and try to have your own personal paradigm shift.  Do something different. For all the freedom you preach, are you still a corporate slave doing the 9-5 thing in the office? NH seems like a good territory and a step in the right direction. Take incremental steps towards freedom, don't try to do all at once.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 03:12:02 am by etc »
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New Hampshire Charter: Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necessity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government among us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such governments as shall be, to our best discerning, agreeable to the will of God.

John Edward Mercier

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2010, 10:24:42 am »

If NH organized a State Defense Force... it would cost tax payers.
If it seceded, it would need the support of Quebec.

Neither is likely to be acceptable to those residing here.
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Dreepa

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2010, 11:26:16 am »

If NH organized a State Defense Force... it would cost tax payers.
If it seceded, it would need the support of Quebec.

Neither is likely to be acceptable to those residing here.


I don't think we would need the support of Quebec.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2010, 11:35:00 am »

We're surrounded on four sides... three sides would remain Union. And NH neither has the treaties nor internal resources to affectly care for itself. It would just be a staggering displacement for many.
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antistate1190

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2010, 01:23:03 pm »

We're surrounded on four sides... three sides would remain Union. And NH neither has the treaties nor internal resources to affectly care for itself. It would just be a staggering displacement for many.


NH has a large shipping industry in Portsmouth and a growing technology industry in the Manchester-Bedford-Merrimack area from what I've been told.

Making NH its own country would allow us to charge a lot of money for when people from other states come to NH for shopping. NH would be much better off as its own country.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2010, 04:18:48 pm »

Your economics are a little weak. Seceding removes NH's trade and travel agreements.
NH also doesn't currently supply the basic necessities of life for its residents.

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maxxoccupancy

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2010, 07:07:49 pm »

Honestly, I've been interested in secession for years, but I wouldn't think it practical unless the other northern New England states came with us (Vermont and Maine), which is even more remote a notion.  Even then, the total population of this new nation would only be about 3.5 million, about 1% of the US, or about one year's population growth.

It would be one thing to do as Quebec does--threaten secession if the tenth amendment wasn't respected--but if the feds called our bluff, we'd be in a difficult bind.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2010, 11:32:32 pm »

Quebec doesn't really want to secede. Some of its players might... but the general push was for what Americans would consider Statehood. The biggest problem is NH (collectively) doesn't seem to want to fend for itself.
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etc

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2010, 11:38:01 pm »

The political landscape could get really redrawn if we experience an economic collapse, like I think we will. TSHTF in the truest sense. The fundamentals of the US economics are not good.  I believe the government will try to print its way out of the 13.5T of debt. That means hyperinflation. Every regime that has hyperinflated its currency has collapsed.

I suspect the business-as-usual model is about to go away. Really in the next 5 years, nothing is out of the question.

Just take a look here to grasp the dimension of the problem:
usdebtclock.org
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New Hampshire Charter: Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necessity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government among us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such governments as shall be, to our best discerning, agreeable to the will of God.
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