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Author Topic: Convince Me....  (Read 18287 times)

Undecided

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2010, 03:23:47 pm »

I guess it's just frustrating to get excited by the slogan "Liberty in our Lifetime," only to find out that it's not likely to achieve that goal.

Absolute pretense of acting under cover of law will have to be shed, because you will eventually HAVE to nullify federal law, which means opposing the interpretation of "supremacy" that most US citizens hold (you won't be able to influence the federal legislature enough to change things "legally"). In the eyes of many Americans, you will be behaving unlawfully by trying to create a free society. The phony legal rationale for stepping on the FSP will come from this train of thought (if somehow this movement swells to 500,000 and you can actually do something). By rolling over at the first sight of trouble, you can't win. If you manage to stay 100% in the lines, you'll be 100% ineffective.

I'll withhold from signing on until I see evidence that people here have the courage to do what is necessary. If you all carry the reasoning that made you liberty-leaning people to its logical conclusion, you'll eventually adopt NAP, and opt for the voluntary society (anarchy).

I appreciated all of the responses.

Best of luck,

Undecided
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Bazil

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2010, 03:34:00 pm »

The whole thing is the FSP isn't here to decide what kind of government, or lack there of, the Free State will have.  The people who lived there will decide that, the FSP is just here to get liberty minded people in a high enough concentration in one area to effect decisions made by the government.  This is already beginning to happen.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2010, 03:36:01 pm »

First things first. If you favor anarchy, the best way to get there is to start with limiting government, bit by bit. Liberty in (some of) our lifetimes, yes, but not all in one leap. This statistical investigation may be of interest:
http://pileusblog.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/statistical-estimates-of-the-future-impact-of-the-free-state-project/
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

rossby

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2010, 05:03:49 pm »

So you try to get 20,000 people somewhere, but then not change our government.

The FSP itself does not try to change the government.

What is light or transient about the national government? It's heavy-handed (the executive can order us to be killed whenever he wants). Also, losses in freedom over the past 100 years have rarely been undone. Look up the ratchet effect.

Look up the Declaration of Independence.

I'll need more convincing; maybe an explanation of what you think this will do....

As previously alluded to, the FSP is not a political action organization. The FSP does not try to change government policy (or whatever). The FSP tries to get people to move to New Hampshire. Once people are here, why, they find their own ways to go about doing things.


Beyond that, how should we convince you? You don't seem to need all that much convincing. I mean, I don't see what your principal objections are. Except that you think a "free county" project would be superior. (Which I would strongly disagree with.) 'Course, if you google the idea, you'll find a good amount of information.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 06:07:01 pm by B.D. Ross »
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Dreepa

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2010, 05:31:53 pm »

Counties are administrative subdivisions of the states. State legislatures can alter or abolish them at all. It is illegal for counties to secede without the permission of the state and the U.S. Congress. What's more, in New Hampshire counties do almost nothing (except run jails).\

and nursing homes...
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2010, 06:51:11 pm »

Counties are administrative subdivisions of the states. State legislatures can alter or abolish them at all. It is illegal for counties to secede without the permission of the state and the U.S. Congress. What's more, in New Hampshire counties do almost nothing (except run jails).\

and nursing homes...

Forgot about that. Privatize! :D
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

rossby

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2010, 08:03:05 pm »

Counties are administrative subdivisions of the states. State legislatures can alter or abolish them at all. It is illegal for counties to secede without the permission of the state and the U.S. Congress. What's more, in New Hampshire counties do almost nothing (except run jails).\

and nursing homes...

Forgot about that. Privatize! :D

Stop being libertarian! It conflicts with my worldview. >:D
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2010, 12:47:38 am »

Would need to change the NH State Constitution.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2010, 09:08:39 am »

Would need to change the NH State Constitution.

Nursing homes are in the constitution?
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

rossby

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2010, 09:52:27 am »

Would need to change the NH State Constitution.

Nursing homes are in the constitution?

Think he's talking about the lack of constitutional support for county autonomy.
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WendellBerry

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2010, 10:16:43 am »

Would need to change the NH State Constitution.

Nursing homes are in the constitution?

Under the "general welfare" clause...just kidding!
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2010, 10:32:44 am »

Would need to change the NH State Constitution.

Nursing homes are in the constitution?

Think he's talking about the lack of constitutional support for county autonomy.

Oh OK. Yeah, I was thinking the legislature could sell them off. One way to close the budget gap...
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Ed

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2010, 10:49:20 am »

General Welfare. Ahh, I've heard of his exploits well.

He slaughtered the Taxpayers at the Battle of Government Solvency.

But that was long after he had outwitted Colonel Libertarian at the Battle of Nitpicky Dogmatism, using his tactics of Standard Effective Currency and Ubiquitous Roads
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2010, 12:29:58 pm »

Public charity under Part Second Article 83.
The Legislature could close the budget gap by simply following the NH Constitution to its bare obligations.
The reason Governor Lynch was agreeable to the sale of State property is because of its continuing increase of inventory.
Even as the Division of NH Parks and Recreation is in shortfall to self-funding, it has acquired several pieces of property through donation/etc that have limited usage.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Convince Me....
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2010, 01:55:24 pm »

The state could still have a voucher program to help people pay for nursing home care, as an intermediate step. No reason for government to own & operate nursing homes outright.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism
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